Article Link: School Boredom and Underachievement

[xcriteria]

I won't even get into my school survival story now, but suffice it to say I'm now researching the situation faced by people who like learning, by hate school. I've found that researchers have already looked into this, especially under the category of "gifted" students. I think the problem is broader than that, but as the article below says, "Research findings suggest that a student does not have to be gifted to be bored in school but it helps"

Anyway, I will write more about what I've found, what I think, and what I've experienced, but in the meantime I thought this article had a lot of good points: To produce or not to produce? Understanding boredom and the honor in underachievement

(It is an academic paper describing an interview study with bored students who don't do their work, with a lot of analysis. The appendix has part of a letter one of the students sent to school officials describing her boredom, apparently without any results.)

Personally, I could relate to most of the attitudes expressed by these students. I'm interested in people's comments on the article.

Brendan

[cheesenomore]

Jill Wrote:I set up little challenges for myself taking the risk of getting into trouble by doing that [skipping class]. I liked doing things like that, daily challenges. I don't skip everyday. It's not a big problem because I get the work done... I beat the system.

exactly. if this is why a lot of kids ditch class, why is it such a big deal?

[Doc Johnson]

Thanks for the link. This fits really well with an article I'm working on right now.

[SoulRiser]

lifeischeese Wrote:exactly. if this is why a lot of kids ditch class, why is it such a big deal?

because then they don't spend enough time in class so they can't get brainwashed properly

[Spootifercus]

Oh, my. This article is a touch spooky it’s so like me.

Maybe this is 'cause I want to associate it with a pet obsession, but is anyone familiar with Jungian/Keirsey personality typing and how it relates to teaching? I've been reading about it a lot since this summer. It seems that a lot of teachers in high school tend to be of the Sensible Judger type. SJs can appreciate the 'everything builds on everything else' sentiment and tend to put great value on duty and obedience, and teach by tests and repetition. (According to David Keirsey, about 38% of the population is of an SJ type, and three out of five teachers are SJs.)

I consistently test as an NT-- Intuitive Thinker-- a temperament that craves knowledge, but gets tired of routine. And routine is all school IS!

Dunno if I'm 'gifted,' but bored is my default state during school, with occasional bouts of anger and mischief. Things move too slowly to be worth listening to, so I entertain myself by writing in my notebook, drawing, scheming and reading under my desk. (Reminds me of I'm in the stupid math program-- my 8th grade math teacher disliked that I read when I finished my work and decided that I was a slacker.)

I really WANT to learn, but somewhere between the handouts and bells and gym and keyboarding classes, it doesn't happen. So much of the day is just wasted time, and it gets to be a drag. I got high grades, but I don't care anymore. I know I can get high grades, I've nothing left to prove.

So as a result, I don't do a lot of my work. I already know I can handle the material, so why show someone else who doesn't even care that I can repeat the processes?

(Heheh, sorry for the rant-length, but this struck something in me.)

[xcriteria]

Spootifercus Wrote:Maybe this is 'cause I want to associate it with a pet obsession, but is anyone familiar with Jungian/Keirsey personality typing and how it relates to teaching? I've been reading about it a lot since this summer. It seems that a lot of teachers in high school tend to be of the Sensible Judger type. SJs can appreciate the 'everything builds on everything else' sentiment and tend to put great value on duty and obedience, and teach by tests and repetition. (According to David Keirsey, about 38% of the population is of an SJ type, and three out of five teachers are SJs.)

I've read a lot about these and other dimensions of temperament. Actually it's a main focus of what I'm studying. And in particular, how temperament relates to incompatibility with school. I've actually found a number of studies done on this topic, and I intend to both do more in-depth research (more complex questionnaires & interviews) and especially utilize these findings into provide intellectual (and possibly legal) backing for affected students. Thanks for those statistics! I just got Please Understand Me II, but I haven't read much yet.

Spootifercus Wrote:I consistently test as an NT-- Intuitive Thinker-- a temperament that craves knowledge, but gets tired of routine. And routine is all school IS!

I test as NT too, and I likewise seem fundamentally incompatible with the structure of school.

Spootifercus Wrote:Dunno if I'm 'gifted,' but bored is my default state during school, with occasional bouts of anger and mischief. Things move too slowly to be worth listening to, so I entertain myself by writing in my notebook, drawing, scheming and reading under my desk. (Reminds me of I'm in the stupid math program-- my 8th grade math teacher disliked that I read when I finished my work and decided that I was a slacker.)

I really WANT to learn, but somewhere between the handouts and bells and gym and keyboarding classes, it doesn't happen. So much of the day is just wasted time, and it gets to be a drag. I got high grades, but I don't care anymore. I know I can get high grades, I've nothing left to prove.

So as a result, I don't do a lot of my work. I already know I can handle the material, so why show someone else who doesn't even care that I can repeat the processes?

Exactly! In junior high I made a big deal about how I wasn't learning anything 95% of the time, and the remaining 5% didn't seem important. But somehow that meant nothing to my parents, as if a student isn't capable of knowing when they are learning. I got dismal grades from then until I dropped out of high school.

I've found studies relating several temperament systems to school "problems":
* One trait system, devised by Cloninger, consists of Novelty Seeking, Harm Avoidance, and (social) Reward Dependence, and a few others. These are described at http://psychobiology.wustl.edu/TCI/whatIsTCI.htm
* Another trait system, devised by Eysenck, consists of Extraversion (corresponding closely to the Jungian concept), Neuroticism (anxiety-proneness; partly related to Cloninger's Harm Avoidance), and Psychoticism (partly related to Schizotypy (see wikipedia) and maybe also to Jungian Intuition).

Amazingly, there haven't been very many published studies investigating the Jungian/MBTI dimensions. A lot more use the Cloninger or Eysenck traits. But correlations have been found between all of these and attitudes & behavior.

One study I just read found that among a sample of 13-15 year olds, 17.1% said (via questionnaire) there is nothing wrong with truancy. (Sounds like lifeischeese:

lifeischeese Wrote:if this is why a lot of kids ditch class, why is it such a big deal?

This study found Psychoticism score variations to account for 10% of the variance in attitude toward truancy. (And psychoticism scores tend to be higher in students who are persistently absent, according to another study.)

So each of many traits (and other factors) are likely to play a role in how utterly bad (or good) school tends to be.

The fact that I meet the criteria (non-hyperactive) attention deficit disorder, and I have above-average motivational problems (when I'm not fascinated) adds to the problem. But this stuff fascinates me.

[Spootifercus]

I want Please Understand Me II-- the first one, which I accidentally took from a camp I work at (okay, maybe not *that* accidentally), changed my life. I stumbled around in a daze for days after discovering that book. Is it worth spending my meager funds on?

The Cloninger system sounds interesting-- I've never heard of it before, but I'll check it out now. (Surprise, surpise-- my school cut Psychology as an elective years back. Bastards, that was one I would have loved!) I started keeping track last year of how much time I spent in the halls between classes, at lunch, in pointless things like computer classes (where students can use computers almost as well as the instructor) but I got depressed before I got to the 'actually learning new things' part of it. The wasted time was huge, though.

I should try that again this year. There might be slightly less wasted time this year, seeing as I'm taking a few higher-level courses, but boredom, repetition, and the nagging feeling of futility still haunt me.

[xcriteria]

Spootifercus Wrote:I want Please Understand Me II-- the first one, which I accidentally took from a camp I work at (okay, maybe not *that* accidentally), changed my life. I stumbled around in a daze for days after discovering that book. Is it worth spending my meager funds on?

It's worth seeing, at least. I haven't read much of yet, so I can't really say.

You might want to order it through Interlibrary Loan (which should be free at your local library). Another option I use: Buy books online and then turn around and sell them online (via Amazon) when I'm finished or when I need money. I'll probably sell this one after a while.

My only criticism so far (as you might guess) is that Kiersey only looks at the Jungian-derived dimensions, when quite a few dimensions are worth looking at for a fuller view of temperament. But I don't know of any book that looks at all of them especially well. (Which makes writing one sound like a good project. )

Spootifercus Wrote:The Cloninger system sounds interesting-- I've never heard of it before, but I'll check it out now. (Surprise, surpise-- my school cut Psychology as an elective years back. Bastards, that was one I would have loved!) I started keeping track last year of how much time I spent in the halls between classes, at lunch, in pointless things like computer classes (where students can use computers almost as well as the instructor) but I got depressed before I got to the 'actually learning new things' part of it. The wasted time was huge, though.

I took Psychology in high school, but I must say its content was limited. (It is where I first learned of Myers-Briggs types, though.)

I've been thinking about putting together a sort of informal online course on psychology and some other areas. Actually, it could serve as preparation for the Psychology CLEP, in addition to hopefully being interesting in itself.

I am way too familiar with the depressiveness (and frustration) of how slow "learning new things" comes along in most classes. It's often easier to just look things up online, although it can take a lot of time to find well-presented content. (I'd say wikipedia is the best thing I've found so far.)

I could go on for a long time about the issue of wasted time. It was bad earlier in school and I still face it in college. Looking back, my time in school was incredibly wasted, just as I thought at time time (or even more so). Unfortunately, it was extremely hard (or impossible) to get anyone to take my complaints seriously... as if it's not possible to tell when one is learning or not. Actually that's another topic for an article...

Spootifercus Wrote:I should try that again this year. There might be slightly less wasted time this year, seeing as I'm taking a few higher-level courses, but boredom, repetition, and the nagging feeling of futility still haunt me.

That's exactly how I feel now, even in college. Don't get me wrong -- college is way better than high school. But that pattern is still present because of the format of most classes, which don't support independent learning/projects very well. I'm actually struggling pretty hard with those feelings, while maintaining my determination to get the degree -- which will be of some value. (But the best parts are probably the library's journal subscriptions and books -- plus interlibrary loan -- and a place to stay.)

Here's the dismal pattern of promise: In 7th grade the promise was that 8th grade would be better; in 8th grade, high school would be better; then, that college would be better (partly true, but mostly the first year); now, the promise is that graduate school will be better, but I'm already working graduate-level content on my own now, and by the time I'm in graduate classes I'll probably have similar feelings of not learning much that's new. What I believe actually WILL be better is when I am doing work that has a decent mix of challenge, flexibility, novelty, and purpose.

The worst thing is the sense that I'm not effectively being prepared (or preparing myself) for my future -- including a way to earn a living, the background knowledge to make somewhat informed decisions quickly, a sense of what life can consist of, and so on. Because I have extreme motivational fluctuations, difficulty keeping regular hours, attentional problems, and just my intuitive/novelty-seeking/idea-oriented/strategizing temperament, I am pretty unsuitable for most jobs -- especially keeping the same one after I've figured it out (like many MBTI Intuitive-Thinkers).

It's distressing and demoralizing for me to go through the motions of a job (or class), struggling to meet the minimum requirements, while I see completely unmet needs in the world just waiting for innovative solutions. That is one thing I can excel at, but coming up with such solutions/products/services (that actually work and people want) AND implementing them is a huge amount of work. And school _really_ didn't give me preparation for or practice with that kind of work -- and it still generally isn't.

Over the last few years (since departing a pretty high-paying computer job that was great at first but became unfulfilling), I have had a pretty rough time dealing with my family & stepparents (as I suddenly didn't have income and needed a place to stay) and struggling to come up with some way to both earn a living and develop worthwhile options/products/services for others who share my difficulties with school. My morale and faith that such a thing is possible has fluctuated a lot, though it's much higher now that I've made more progress. It's draining... to have that positive feedback from somewhere -- from others or especially from actual progress.

This sort of endeavor is not taken seriously the way classes are. For example, my parents and others think getting a degree will enable me to get a job, and then I'll be set and I can play with my wild ideas on the side. But if such a job doesn't support me motivationally, I won't keep it for long and then I won't be set to work on anything, but instead struggling to survive (or as a social worker suggested, apply for disability.) But I seem quite captable of doing certain kinds of work.

Now that I've started college again, I have this conflict between focusing on school assignments vs. what I see as more vital tasks, such as research and writing articles, development of improved curricula and learning/teaching methods, and so on. And on top of that, figuring out a way to actually earn a living before too long. I'm actually doing pretty well with those things -- far better than most of the past few years between pressure to get a "real" job and uncertainty over what I'm even capable of).

So in conclusion, I'm now managing to do okay balancing school and work; it's draining; and I'm working the hardest at dealing with feelings and motivation that fluctuate all over the place. (Such as how I wrote all that, but it's almost impossible for me to complete some of the easiest assignments.)

[Doc Johnson]

So, what exactly is your major area? Do you have one set, or are you doing a dual major or dual minor? Just curious.

Interesting thing: I used to be an INTJ when I was in my twenties (mostly before graduate school, before marriage and fatherhood, and well before I did most of my teaching), with a pronounced judgment trait. Now I test as an INFJ and tend to sit on the border of Thinking/Judging (great view there). Have you heard of any longitudinal studies on personality type indicators? I wonder to what extent most folks change over time? Have any of you noticed anything of this nature in your experiences with such personality tests?

xcriteria, when you get a chance, you should maybe check out Michel Foucault's Discipline and Punish. Very different approach to what you seem interested in.

[xcriteria]

Doc Johnson Wrote:So, what exactly is your major area? Do you have one set, or are you doing a dual major or dual minor? Just curious.

My academic major is now Psychology. (When I first started college, I took some psychology classes but I was planning on computer science. In the end, that was maybe the worst thing for me to study in school, so instead I found a computer job without a degree.)

Doc Johnson Wrote:Interesting thing: I used to be an INTJ when I was in my twenties (mostly before graduate school, before marriage and fatherhood, and well before I did most of my teaching), with a pronounced judgment trait. Now I test as an INFJ and tend to sit on the border of Thinking/Judging (great view there). Have you heard of any longitudinal studies on personality type indicators? I wonder to what extent most folks change over time? Have any of you noticed anything of this nature in your experiences with such personality tests?

All the longitudinal studies I can think of are based on establishing how stable/reliable (statistically) some trait is, and I haven't seen any of those on MBTI types. Researchers don't seem so interested in the ways people change, I guess :| (I've read anecdotal reports online of type changes, though.)

Over time, it's become very hard for me to answer most MBTI and similar questions, because the true answer is "it depends" -- so much so that I can't even realistically pick from many either-or options. I've certainly been in the "mode" of all the types at one time or another, sometimes cyclically. Nevertheless, I think my "natural preference" is INTJ, and especially the Introversion and Intuition dimensions. I really do tend to live for researchingstrategizing/brainstorming and then translating the mental work into actual form that I can see is worth something. And that seems to be characteristic of the INTJ type. Unfortunately it's hard for me to get in that mode, probably due to my motivational and attentional problems. But when circumstances are optimal (when I have some idea-to-reality project that I believe in or is otherwise intesting), that is where I get "flow" states or "peak experiences" or a sense of "self-actualization."

But in day-to-day life, absent some project I'm enthralled with and making progress in, I tend to act far Perceiving than Judging.

I also have a very strong "Introverted Feeling" function but extroverted feeling is a lot less developed or more unconscious in me. That is consistent with the the order of functions listed for INTJ. (The MBTI model is more complex than the 4 dimensions would indicate, because the theory is that each type has a particular "order preference" of the 8 functions: the introverted and extroverted versions of Thinking/Feeling and Sensation/iNtution. I'm not sure how well that works in all cases, but it seems to be accurate in my case with the INTJ order. (When I first read about this stuff, I found it to be pretty confusing. But after reading multiple views on it, letting it sink in, and repeatedly examining and reflecting on my behavior (including distant memories), I have a pretty solid understanding of the theory.

However, I've wanted some hard neuroscience evidence of the exact physiological basis of these functions for a long time, but there has been very little research done with Jungian dimensions. One study investigated Eysenck's Extroversion-Introversion trait (roughly comparable to the Jung/MBTI one) in participants with fMRI neuroimaging while they did calculations and rested. And the results do give some hard data that Introversion-Extroversion corresponds to a people using their brain in different ways: Personality predicts brain responses to cognitive demands.

Another concept related to type is called "falsification of type" (originally by Jung). Basically, this means being forced to use one's weaker functions a ton, while not using one's preferred ones much at all. (For example, because of one's job or school.) I think this is definitely applicable to me. It wasn't that I had a job at a tech start-up that I was really able to operate in my preferred mode productively and for extended periods. The consequences of falsyfying type apparently include "Prolonged Adaptation Stress Syndrome" (according to [url=http://www.businessballs.com/benzigerpersonalityassessment.htm]Katherine Benziger]) and that may well be a key contributor to my psychological problems. (I KNEW IT WAS SCHOOL! )

Doc Johnson Wrote:xcriteria, when you get a chance, you should maybe check out Michel Foucault's Discipline and Punish. Very different approach to what you seem interested in.

According to a review on Amazon, his writing is extremely hard to comprehend, and I have trouble reading much at a time as it is. But I can see what you mean, so I'll check it out.

[SoulRiser]

all this personality stuff is very interesting

i took an online test twice, a few months apart and both times came out as INFP, which is apparently pretty rare (no wonder i dont make sense to people)

[Pimpalicous]

Hey I just took that test thing and it turned out INFP as well. What does that mean??? I dont want to be one of the 1% of freaks that turn out INFP. I wanna be one of those normal extroverted freaks, they seem so happy. This internet gets more scary everyday...

[SoulRiser]

P.I.M.P. Wrote:I dont want to be one of the 1% of freaks that turn out INFP.

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!! i don't want to share a personality with PIMP!!! ... you're not really INFP are you?

[Pimpalicous]

yes i am, and it opend my eyes to a few things. Theres nothing wrong with my personality. If you dont like it you better take the test again only this time answer each question the opposite to what you normally would.

[SoulRiser]

hehe

no i like being INFP, cuz it's all rare and stuff. why dont you take the test again and answer differently?

j/k

[cheesenomore]

actually, this little chart thingy here, which i got off wikipedia, sez that INFP is so rare after all...

[Human V. 2.0]

I was bored in class. Then I realized the stuff is actually interesting.

[SoulRiser]

lifeischeese Wrote:actually, this little chart thingy here, which i got off wikipedia, sez that INFP is so rare after all...

that's weird, the other one i saw said INFP was like 1% and INFJ was 2%.... interesting. now all of a sudden INFP is a whopping 4%? hmmm.

[Doc Johnson]

I guess it just depends on who you ask. Aren't we all just the rarest one of all anyway? Legends in our own minds.

They're just preferences, as xcriteria (I believe), pointed out. Cool though, and they at least are helpful in getting people to consider that they are peculiar... and so are other people, for that matter.

[Pimpalicous]

Doc Johnson Wrote:I guess it just depends on who you ask. Aren't we all just the rarest one of all anyway? Legends in our own minds.

They're just preferences, as xcriteria (I believe), pointed out. Cool though, and they at least are helpful in getting people to consider that they are peculiar... and so are other people, for that matter.

Bro, is that dude in the picture really you? Cuz if it is your one guy i dont want to meet in a dark alley, seriously.

[Doc Johnson]

P.I.M.P. Wrote:Bro, is that dude in the picture really you? Cuz if it is your one guy i dont want to meet in a dark alley, seriously.

Yep. That's me alright. Grrr.

Really, I swear, I don't hang out in dark alleys. I also haven't been in a fist fight since 7th grade (not a real one anyway). That was 25 years ago. I'm pretty peaceful, really. Not a hippie tho, dammit. I haven't fought, does not mean I wouldn't, right?

[Human V. 2.0]

You look like the kind of guy, who, when given the option between a million dollars, or a Harley Davidson...would choose the Harley.

[Spootifercus]

Found this today on a LJ community and giggled hysterically for a bit. I might be easily amused, though.

http://www.xeromag.com/fun/personality.html

This bit's my favorite, describing the INTP:

'RECREATION: Surprisingly, INTPs are often the hit of the party--not for their sometimes annoying habit of turning every discussion into a debate about semantics nor for their fascinating stories about Pierre de Fermat's habit of writing things in the margins of his books, but for the fact that they often show up with their pants on backwards and that if you put a Post-It note reading "Kick Me" on an INTP's back, he won't notice it no matter how many people kick him. That kind of entertainment never gets old.'

How painfully true!

[Doc Johnson]

Icarian Decoding Wrote:You look like the kind of guy, who, when given the option between a million dollars, or a Harley Davidson...would choose the Harley.

Truth is, I don't even know how to ride a motorcycle. Hell, I don't even want to know. Those things can get you killed! It's not if you're going to lay it down, but when, and under what circumstances.

Nope, the scariest thing I do is the kung fu, and to tell you the truth, knowing you can kick most people's asses somewhat counterintuitively makes you not worry about that so much. It's like Yoda said (or something like it) it's fear that leads to anger, and anger that leads to violence. Fear is at the heart of it. Is that why I'm always so pissed at clowns I want to beat them? I don't know, but I'm glad Insane Clown Posse is no longer around. Those fuckers creeped me out.

[Doc Johnson]

Spootifercus Wrote:Found this today on a LJ community and giggled hysterically for a bit. I might be easily amused, though.

http://www.xeromag.com/fun/personality.html

This bit's my favorite, describing the INTP:

'RECREATION: Surprisingly, INTPs are often the hit of the party--not for their sometimes annoying habit of turning every discussion into a debate about semantics nor for their fascinating stories about Pierre de Fermat's habit of writing things in the margins of his books, but for the fact that they often show up with their pants on backwards and that if you put a Post-It note reading "Kick Me" on an INTP's back, he won't notice it no matter how many people kick him. That kind of entertainment never gets old.'

How painfully true!

I took the test too. Funny stuff. Say hello to Doc Johnson, INFJ conspiracy theorist. Oh, and I so wanted to be an evil overlord. Well, there can really only be one of those a time, anyway, right? Hey, xcriteria, I guess this finding explains some of my misgivings regarding the benevolence of the free market, eh? Maybe today I'll go out and by a new tinfoil hat for the holiday season...

[xcriteria]

ROTFL! That types page is pretty funny, and parts are pretty accurate...

"RECREATION: INTJs are often baffled by the strange and incomprehensible recreational rituals of other people, such as going to parties, watching television, and having sex."

"The INTJ sees life as a problem to be solved."

Hmm, no wonder I think sex is best approached as a research problem.

"COMPATIBILITY: Silly person, INTJs don't have relationships! They may, however build their own friends."

Hahahaha...

Doc Johnson Wrote:I took the test too. Funny stuff. Say hello to Doc Johnson, INFJ conspiracy theorist. Oh, and I so wanted to be an evil overlord. Well, there can really only be one of those a time, anyway, right? Hey, xcriteria, I guess this finding explains some of my misgivings regarding the benevolence of the free market, eh? Maybe today I'll go out and by a new tinfoil hat for the holiday season...

LOL

[SoulRiser]

ROFL that page is funny

INFP: The Idealist
INFPs are sometimes dangerous to the well-being of society as a whole, as they are prone to adopting subversive and destructive ideologies like "The world should be fair," "People should treat one another well," and "You know, 'Friends' is a really, really stupid television show."

oh well that's a good thing i guess

[Mælstrom]

I WANNA BE RUSSIAN /end shitposting/

[Mælstrom]

(06-03-2012 10:41 AM)Cydonia Wrote:  I WANNA BE RUSSIAN /end shitposting/

Watch on YouTube

[King Bum]

(06-03-2012 10:41 AM)Cydonia Wrote:  I WANNA BE RUSSIAN /end shitposting/

7 year bump.