"Michelle" on School

[M3116]

Michelle is a four-year-old, who will be five tomorrow, and whose name is not actually Michelle but will not be disclosed on SS. She can write her name all by herself and can count objects up to ten. She is a very good student three days a week at daycare in a top junior college and has exceptional social skills and manners. However, on kindergarten, which she will be going to in August, she says:

"I'm not going to kindergarten 'cause I don't want to." (Smiles)
"I don't want to go because... Because I'm not getting shots. But I know I have to get shots for kindergarten, and...And...And my mom she makes me get shots, but I'm going to tell them 'no' when they try to give me a shot."
(Another girl tells her she has to get shots anyway, even if she goes to school at home)
"Well, I'm not going to school. I'm just going to stay home...and watch TV for the rest of my life because they can't make me go. I'm just not good for kindergarten. I'm just not a 'kindergarten' kind of girl." (She really said that by the way, pretty darn precious is she not?)
(She is told that she has to go to school by the same 5 year old)
"No! You're-you're bigger than me and I shouldn't have to go and I don't want to go to kindergarten, I want to keep learning here. I don't like kindergarten..."

Michelle became upset because she realized that forces were aligning against her--mother, doctors, teachers--in order to control her. She understood that doctors break her skin and hurt and harm her, and has the desire to resist.
She is confused as to why other people desire to force her to do something she does not want to do. She does not think, but knows, that this is not good for her and begins to feel inferior in trying to object.
This upsets me to believe that so early in life students want nothing of their government mandated education, a feeling that is very difficult, I think, to have.
Discuss:
Is kindergarten really 'best' for children like Michelle, or just a failure at any solution imposed for the masses with a 'rules over reasons' attitude?
What would you do if you were Michelle's mom/dad?
Is there anything parents can do for children who are registered with Social Security but do not wish to attend formal school, esp. if they're teenagers?

[UnschoolShqiponjë]

If she was my daughter, the only thing she would have to suffer is the vaccinations. After which she will get a great reward because it sucks when your parents make you get needles and then tell you "too bad suck it up" like what would happen to me.

Yes, parents can homeschool their kids or unschool if they wish. Mabe even send them to a Montessouri or Sudbury school.

[The]

I was in the same situation as Michelle in kindergarten

[M3116]

No, Montessoris suck.

[fish20]

She wants to learn at home. So I would let her. I would make her get the shots, but I would tell her that if she gets the shots she will get a present!

[aCol]

Why not describe a five year old why she needs to get shots?

[UnschoolShqiponjë]

(05-04-2012 12:58 PM)M3116 Wrote:  No, Montessoris suck.

They are better than regular kindergarten.

[Sneaxx]

I don't live in the US so don't give me any shit, but before I go any further, are these shots compulsory even if the parents say no?

[UnschoolShqiponjë]

(05-05-2012 04:15 AM)Sneaxx Wrote:  I don't live in the US so don't give me any shit, but before I go any further, are these shots compulsory even if the parents say no?

No. I am pretty sure vaccinations are not mandatory however you won't be able to partake in a lot of activities including college and such. You would need to get the vaccinations.

Vaccinations are important and good. Yes there are risky side effects but they are extremely miniscule. The studies that linked autism to certain vaccinations were debunked.

Parents should do research on each vaccination given to their child. Then decide for themselves.

[Sneaxx]

(05-05-2012 05:50 AM)UnschoolShqiponjë Wrote:  No. I am pretty sure vaccinations are not mandatory however you won't be able to partake in a lot of activities including college and such. You would need to get the vaccinations.

Vaccinations are important and good. Yes there are risky side effects but they are extremely miniscule. The studies that linked autism to certain vaccinations were debunked.

Parents should do research on each vaccination given to their child. Then decide for themselves.

That's ok. As long as the vaccines aren't forced it's ok. Perhaps the child could be bribed. It may sound cruel in a way, but it works on almost everyone (including myself. My mum 'bribed' me into cleaning the entire bathroom for £5 every week a few years ago. It's tough work and only now do I realise that there is no point).

[TheCancer]

(05-04-2012 12:58 PM)M3116 Wrote:  No, Montessoris suck.

I agree.

[UnschoolShqiponjë]

(05-05-2012 11:14 PM)Sneaxx Wrote:  

(05-05-2012 05:50 AM)UnschoolShqiponjë Wrote:  No. I am pretty sure vaccinations are not mandatory however you won't be able to partake in a lot of activities including college and such. You would need to get the vaccinations.

Vaccinations are important and good. Yes there are risky side effects but they are extremely miniscule. The studies that linked autism to certain vaccinations were debunked.

Parents should do research on each vaccination given to their child. Then decide for themselves.

That's ok. As long as the vaccines aren't forced it's ok. Perhaps the child could be bribed. It may sound cruel in a way, but it works on almost everyone (including myself. My mum 'bribed' me into cleaning the entire bathroom for £5 every week a few years ago. It's tough work and only now do I realise that there is no point).

Vaccines are one of the few things that I would have to force on my kids even if they don't want them. I will explain as best I can the reasoning for the vaccine. Then I will essentially reward them for taking it. I hated needles myself and I still do but I realize the importance.

[OmegaWolf747]

If Michelle hates school that much, she should be allowed to home school.

The worst of it is, if she displays such promise at such a young age, exposure to mediocre children in a mediocre environment could destroy the advances she has made, as she would be singled out and discriminated against for being ahead of the other kids in her class.

[M3116]

(05-06-2012 02:07 AM)UnschoolShqiponjë Wrote:  Vaccines are one of the few things that I would have to force on my kids even if they don't want them. I will explain as best I can the reasoning for the vaccine. Then I will essentially reward them for taking it. I hated needles myself and I still do but I realize the importance.
Vaccines are important and good

I wouldn't allow a government mandated "doctor" to stick a needle into a child who is not yet old enough to understand whether or not they want this (six is the youngest age I would ever say vaccines are alright; for her, younger as she is so tiny for her age and once was out the whole week with illness).
No, I would not allow anyone kid I knew to become a marginal error society is willing to make, not unless I had seen the vaccine made with my own two eyes.
No mistake from the hands of a physician that slips its hands into our children's pants so young in life, that whisks them away and inflicts harm upon them, that with pretentiousness claims the intent of a Divine good, that speaks in the same such monotone of fact that has for all my life oppressed me and never will my children.
Never would I let them be confused like she is as to why people she doesn't even know are making her do something, and why her mom is giving her to them.
Makes me sick. Disgusting.

(05-07-2012 04:47 AM)OmegaWolf747 Wrote:  If Michelle hates school that much, she should be allowed to home school.

The worst of it is, if she displays such promise at such a young age, exposure to mediocre children in a mediocre environment could destroy the advances she has made, as she would be singled out and discriminated against for being ahead of the other kids in her class.

I agree. She is given no option.
This is true but she also likes social activities, especially with girls, and only has brothers so I would take her to some program as well. Yes advanced young children have the most to fear.

[UnschoolShqiponjë]

Quote:I wouldn't allow a government mandated "doctor" to stick a needle into a child who is not yet old enough to understand whether or not they want this (six is the youngest age I would ever say vaccines are alright; for her, younger as she is so tiny for her age and once was out the whole week with illness).
No, I would not allow anyone kid I knew to become a marginal error society is willing to make, not unless I had seen the vaccine made with my own two eyes.
No mistake from the hands of a physician that slips its hands into our children's pants so young in life, that whisks them away and inflicts harm upon them, that with pretentiousness claims the intent of a Divine good, that speaks in the same such monotone of fact that has for all my life oppressed me and never will my children.
Never would I let them be confused like she is as to why people she doesn't even know are making her do something, and why her mom is giving her to them.
Makes me sick. Disgusting.

Now I am all for conspiracy theories but....

Why do you think I said parents should research EACH vaccine before getting it for their kids. The idea that vaccines are bad is a misguided extension of mistrust/dislike of authority. However vaccines are NOT legally mandatory and you can pick and choose which are given. If people stopped getting the vaccines disease would spread, disease we once thought gone. Not a good thing.

As for the doctor fondling comment. I happen to agree. Though not in a hysterical way. I, personally, didn't mind my doctor checking me penis when I was a kid, I liked it. Though I can't say the same for other kids. I don't see why parents make their kids do it anyway even if the kid is clearly uncomfortable with it. More evidence, to me, that molestation and "sex abuse" is more subjective in our society than objective.

[M3116]

(05-08-2012 11:50 PM)UnschoolShqiponjë Wrote:  

Quote:I wouldn't allow a government mandated "doctor" to stick a needle into a child who is not yet old enough to understand whether or not they want this (six is the youngest age I would ever say vaccines are alright; for her, younger as she is so tiny for her age and once was out the whole week with illness).
No, I would not allow anyone kid I knew to become a marginal error society is willing to make, not unless I had seen the vaccine made with my own two eyes.
No mistake from the hands of a physician that slips its hands into our children's pants so young in life, that whisks them away and inflicts harm upon them, that with pretentiousness claims the intent of a Divine good, that speaks in the same such monotone of fact that has for all my life oppressed me and never will my children.
Never would I let them be confused like she is as to why people she doesn't even know are making her do something, and why her mom is giving her to them.
Makes me sick. Disgusting.

Now I am all for conspiracy theories but....

Why do you think I said parents should research EACH vaccine before getting it for their kids. The idea that vaccines are bad is a misguided extension of mistrust/dislike of authority. However vaccines are NOT legally mandatory and you can pick and choose which are given. If people stopped getting the vaccines disease would spread, disease we once thought gone. Not a good thing.

As for the doctor fondling comment. I happen to agree. Though not in a hysterical way. I, personally, didn't mind my doctor checking me penis when I was a kid, I liked it. Though I can't say the same for other kids. I don't see why parents make their kids do it anyway even if the kid is clearly uncomfortable with it. More evidence, to me, that molestation and "sex abuse" is more subjective in our society than objective.

I know they are not mandatory, but it is difficult to deny that they are a prevalent part of life conditioned by the government, namely in the public schools--and for families who can't afford to home school their children and such other cases, it really must be mandatory.
Of course disease would spread if the state stopped imposing vaccines upon its people; what else can we expect them to do? However, stepping out of the idealistic discussion that hopes to apply to all people I could care less about that if my own child were so upset at being harmed. This applies to vaccines like, you know, DTap and the chickenpox vaccine. Not choosing to be vaccinated with these is not this slippery slope it is made out to be with the irrational panic the government aims to encourage. No child of mine would ever suffer, either immediately or after a vaccine, because they were involuntarily born into a large society. And I'm not saying it'd be the disease in question, either. You can easily get ill for a while from a vaccine that does not have that pathogen, especially at that age you can. Conveniently, this rate is never reported.
In embracing a more low key style of life without overcrowded school classrooms at such a young age, the risk of spreading this disease to other children--the primary concern in most vaccinations-- is lessened. It is important as parents not to allow quasi-potential dangers to determine every immediate action that is taken, because it upsets children quite a bit.
Still, if the child in question were going to travel somewhere new, I would try to get them some immunoglobulins and if there were a baby in the house I might ask them to accept a pertussis vaccine, explaining and offering a reward like you said. But vaccinations are something we must all be careful with, especially at the hands of who it is that gives them. They are a danger in themselves.