Putting Communism back in the running.

[Absnt]

Disclaimer: This isn't necessarily what I believe. It's just an idea to open up some interesting debate.

Rebelnerd left, Wes came back, the great debate over capitalism and communism reignited and capitalism came out on top. We left off with a general consensus among a lot of us that capitalism, generally, in it's actual form is preferable. Agreeing that the corporations and the rich who have absurd amounts of money were put into power by the government backing them, and that is against the will of capitalists.

I propose, after re-reading a bit of Karl Marx, however that Capitalism isn't sustainable on a global scale. Weswammy proposed that the reason poorer countries have such shitty jobs, and such a hard time surviving is because of their oppressive governments and their shit systems. Marx would respond to that, if I read him correctly, by pointing out that the reason modern capitalistic societies today do so well is because we exploit shitty countries like China, Africa, and southeastern countries for their cheap labor to sustain our cheap prices. We are stealing their profit, in a sense.

If every country decided it would be a good idea to turn to a free-market based economy then it would follow that there would be no more cheap labor. We wouldn't be able to "steal their profits" and that would cause the eventual collapse of capitalism. According to Marx, capitalism is much much better than the previous dictatorships and monarchy's. It was a good step in the inevitable line of progress, but capitalism won't be sustainable for the reasons listed.

The way he saw it, the perfect society would be one in which we would be able to pursue our interests and be human without the need to work the majority of our lives away. Originally we had slaves so that a very few could do this. Then we moved to capitalism which gave many, many people more free time than any other system had. The next system will inevitably be a system in which we need only work a few hours (read: 2 or 3) a day, and the rest of the time we are free to be human. While capitalism was a positive step, we aren't finished yet.

Capitalism has "sewn it's own seeds of destruction" and will eventually inevitably fall, and should fall, for a move favourable position.

[LOON_ATTIC]

pinko bastard

[UnschoolShqiponjë]

Quote:Marx would respond to that, if I read him correctly, by pointing out that the reason modern capitalistic societies today do so well is because we exploit shitty countries like China, Africa, and southeastern countries for their cheap labor to sustain our cheap prices. We are stealing their profit, in a sense.

I don't think America was doing this in the early 1900's late 1800's. Though one could argue that they were taking advantage of American workers before Americans demanded worker's rights so to speak. So then they moved abroad. That being said the same is bound to happen in those poor countries. Yet, it might not because of their governments. So I still wouldn't blame capitalism.

[gore goroth]

Some people actually like to buy things that aren't made in China and they perfer to buy things made in the U.S.A.

[Absnt]

(01-15-2012 09:49 AM)gore goroth Wrote:  Some people actually like to buy things that aren't made in China and they perfer to buy things made in the U.S.A.

Hardly. Take a pair of Nike's, for example. Made in China. Selling for like 30 bucks or something. If the same pair was made in the U.S, they'd be selling for like 100+.

[UnschoolShqiponjë]

(01-15-2012 10:15 AM)Absentinsomniac Wrote:  

(01-15-2012 09:49 AM)gore goroth Wrote:  Some people actually like to buy things that aren't made in China and they perfer to buy things made in the U.S.A.

Hardly. Take a pair of Nike's, for example. Made in China. Selling for like 30 bucks or something. If the same pair was made in the U.S, they'd be selling for like 100+.

Except those fucking new Jordans qifsha nanen.

[thriller222]

I have to agree. While capitalism isnt as bad as the feudal systems that it replaced, it is still flawed. Human progress will reach a point where capitalism will become obsolete, and a new system will come in to replace it. I'm not saying the system that replaces it will be socialism or anything, but it will have to be better. No system lasts forever, and capitalism is on deaths doors, being killed by its own excesses. If you look at how badly the world is doing today, its not because the system was ruined, its because things like capitalism and government are becoming obsolete, and its arrogant to try and save it.

At least thats my opinion.

EDIT: Let the communist/capitalist debate return!

[UnschoolShqiponjë]

(01-15-2012 10:18 AM)thriller222 Wrote:  I have to agree. While capitalism isnt as bad as the feudal systems that it replaced, it is still flawed. Human progress will reach a point where capitalism will become obsolete, and a new system will come in to replace it. I'm not saying the system that replaces it will be socialism or anything, but it will have to be better. No system lasts forever, and capitalism is on deaths doors, being killed by its own excesses. If you look at how badly the world is doing today, its not because the system was ruined, its because things like capitalism and government are becoming obsolete, and its arrogant to try and save it.

At least thats my opinion.

Pure anarchy is a free market (pure capitalism) (if you still wish for property to exist).

[Absnt]

Personally, I'd like to see a society where work has become obsolete. Our necessities manufactured by robot-run-factories tended to by people who want some extra DOSH or are interested in working on robots or something. Everyone else can read, write, do philosophy, explore, learn, invent, whatever... Have fun with their friends, search for real meaning in life, that sort of thing. Shit would be cash. Fuck all this working for 40-50 years before retiring bullshit.

[HeartofShadows]

(01-15-2012 10:32 AM)Absentinsomniac Wrote:  Personally, I'd like to see a society where work has become obsolete. Our necessities manufactured by robot-run-factories tended to by people who want some extra DOSH or are interested in working on robots or something. Everyone else can read, write, do philosophy, explore, learn, invent, whatever... Have fun with their friends, search for real meaning in life, that sort of thing. Shit would be cash. Fuck all this working for 40-50 years before retiring bullshit.

Remember talking about this with awol on messenger(About how money would eventually be rendered obsolete due to our advancing society).
Would a nice society to look forward too(Won't have heart conditions or pain from working 40 years at a job).

[UnschoolShqiponjë]

(01-15-2012 10:52 AM)HeartofShadows Wrote:  

(01-15-2012 10:32 AM)Absentinsomniac Wrote:  Personally, I'd like to see a society where work has become obsolete. Our necessities manufactured by robot-run-factories tended to by people who want some extra DOSH or are interested in working on robots or something. Everyone else can read, write, do philosophy, explore, learn, invent, whatever... Have fun with their friends, search for real meaning in life, that sort of thing. Shit would be cash. Fuck all this working for 40-50 years before retiring bullshit.

Remember talking about this with awol on messenger(About how money would eventually be rendered obsolete due to our advancing society).
Would a nice society to look forward too(Won't have heart conditions or pain from working 40 years at a job).

That'd be so sick. I'd still probably do work though. I enjoy manual labor from time to time. Just not 9-5 six days a week lol

[Absnt]

^ We'd still need to build houses, and have construction, and repair infrastructure, and all of that I guess.

[gore goroth]

Gotta remember guys, we don't even have 100% pure capitalism and we haven't seen pure capitalism in a long time. The bullshit pseudo capitalism we have in America now (corporatism) could be gone very soon. I also don't think humanity can go very far with that in place.

[Absnt]

^ So you're advocating the real form of capitalism? Yeah, it'd probably be better. I still think some business regulation is necessary.

[Thought Criminal]

Technology will eventually advance far enough to sustain a less work oriented lifestyle for the general population but I believe we will need capitalism to get there. The western world may stand on the shoulders of other nations to help support our lifestyle but even if we do "Steal profit" from them. That small amount they do get spurs economic growth. Look at China. While they still have a large population of peasants they have a thriving economy, In the next couple of decades China's manufacturing base will begin to decline as they make more money and workers fight for unionization. They will shift to more white collar, paper jobs like the U.S. has and the cheap labor the manufacturing companies want will move to Africa.

[Absnt]

Perhaps, but what will happen when we run out of poor people to do the work for us? Nobody will be willing to work for so little, so prices will shoot up. In capitalism, those who own the means of production (the factories run by robots or whatever other technologies the future will bring) aren't going to hand their shit over for free. They'll charge. Actually, now that I think about it these factories of robots could replace the poor workers. Then the factory owners, and the people who work for the factory owners will be the only ones employed, because they'll supply everything we need dirt cheap. Where the shit would everyone else work? They wouldn't have jobs, which means no money, which means they couldn't afford any of the shit the factories were pumping out.

If no one could afford anything, the factories wouldn't be able to sustain themselves because no one would be buying their shit. Then everything would collapse. The best thing to do at that point would be to abolish money and have the factories run anyway. Then supply everyone with what they want. The factories would probably be taken over by the government. E.g. Communism.

[LOON_ATTIC]

(01-15-2012 02:22 PM)Absentinsomniac Wrote:  Perhaps, but what will happen when we run out of poor people to do the work for us? Nobody will be willing to work for so little, so prices will shoot up. In capitalism, those who own the means of production (the factories run by robots or whatever other technologies the future will bring) aren't going to hand their shit over for free. They'll charge. Actually, now that I think about it these factories of robots could replace the poor workers. Then the factory owners, and the people who work for the factory owners will be the only ones employed, because they'll supply everything we need dirt cheap. Where the shit would everyone else work? They wouldn't have jobs, which means no money, which means they couldn't afford any of the shit the factories were pumping out.

If no one could afford anything, the factories wouldn't be able to sustain themselves because no one would be buying their shit. Then everything would collapse. The best thing to do at that point would be to abolish money and have the factories run anyway. Then supply everyone with what they want. The factories would probably be taken over by the government. E.g. Communism.

Holy shit, I like your thinking.

[Thought Criminal]

(01-15-2012 02:22 PM)Absentinsomniac Wrote:  Perhaps, but what will happen when we run out of poor people to do the work for us? Nobody will be willing to work for so little, so prices will shoot up. In capitalism, those who own the means of production (the factories run by robots or whatever other technologies the future will bring) aren't going to hand their shit over for free. They'll charge. Actually, now that I think about it these factories of robots could replace the poor workers. Then the factory owners, and the people who work for the factory owners will be the only ones employed, because they'll supply everything we need dirt cheap. Where the shit would everyone else work? They wouldn't have jobs, which means no money, which means they couldn't afford any of the shit the factories were pumping out.

If no one could afford anything, the factories wouldn't be able to sustain themselves because no one would be buying their shit. Then everything would collapse. The best thing to do at that point would be to abolish money and have the factories run anyway. Then supply everyone with what they want. The factories would probably be taken over by the government. E.g. Communism.

Once we have reached that level of technology those in possession of factories, etc... Would have no problem supplying things for free. In theory most would in the interest of keeping our way of life intact, come to the realization that there is no need for capital as long as they have consistent supply raw materials to produce their product. While there will always be a slight demand for manual labor it can be evenly divided amongst those most able with the free products that keep their quality of in check being their payment. In essence, Communism. The only issue with such a society is scarcity, which is why capitalism is so popular, (in theory) it gives out credits (Money) for work, which people can use as they see fit, awarding rare products (e.g. Gold, Diamonds) to those who do the most work.
While this obviously is not how our system works, that is how capitalism got it's start.
Technology would have to come up with an efficient way to deal with scarcity such as manufacturing diamonds or gold. Which we can do by the way. Diamond manufacturing is very efficient while making gold from scratch currently consumes to much power to be a viable source.
It's is really, only a matter of time. Hopefully we don't rape our planet into oblivion before we can reach this technological apex.

[Levio_Sah]

Really tired of the communism debate. Holy crapalola.

[Thought Criminal]

Why is that?

[Absnt]

Once we have reached that level of technology those in possession of factories, etc... Would have no problem supplying things for free. In theory most would in the interest of keeping our way of life intact, come to the realization that there is no need for capital as long as they have consistent supply raw materials to produce their product. While there will always be a slight demand for manual labor it can be evenly divided amongst those most able with the free products that keep their quality of in check being their payment. In essence, Communism. The only issue with such a society is scarcity, which is why capitalism is so popular, (in theory) it gives out credits (Money) for work, which people can use as they see fit, awarding rare products (e.g. Gold, Diamonds) to those who do the most work.
While this obviously is not how our system works, that is how capitalism got it's start.[/quote]

I'm following you all the way up until here:

Quote:Technology would have to come up with an efficient way to deal with scarcity such as manufacturing diamonds or gold. Which we can do by the way. Diamond manufacturing is very efficient while making gold from scratch currently consumes to much power to be a viable source.
It's is really, only a matter of time. Hopefully we don't rape our planet into oblivion before we can reach this technological apex.

How would manufacturing gold or diamonds solve the problem of scarcity?

[Thought Criminal]

I was using that as an example. Guess I should have made that clearer. There is a plethora of other things we would have to be able to manufacture to satisfy the need for scarce items at a sustainable level.
Gold and Diamonds simply being a universally valued resource.

[Absnt]

Ah, I see what you're saying. Makes sense. Scarcity would be a bitch. I've always thought about landfills, and how we're going to have to dig all of that bullshit up someday to use it.

[UnschoolShqiponjë]

So it seems that Pure Capitalism (or as close to it as we can get) is ideal in a world where resources are still limited and technology has not advanced too much farther, but once technology does advance far enough and resources are no longer so scarce communism would be more ideal.

[gore goroth]

(01-15-2012 02:00 PM)Absentinsomniac Wrote:  ^ So you're advocating the real form of capitalism? Yeah, it'd probably be better. I still think some business regulation is necessary.

Of course, it's always me and unschool leading the anarcho-capitalist axis here on SS.

As for the future of economic systems turning to socialism, all I can say is wellthatsjustlikeyouropinionman.jpg.

Resources will always be limited. Everyone will still want to better themselves and get more shares of everything then everyone else. Also, we really have no idea what the future will be like, we can only guess. Imagine if you went back in time 150 years or so and told a slave owner that in the future things wheat would be harvested with huge metal machines operated by only one person that are powered by a product of crude oil. Think he would believe you?

[Absnt]

Yeah, things probably won't turn out the way marx predicted, but I think it'd be better. I'd rather work 1 or 2 hours a day than 8.

[UnschoolShqiponjë]

(01-15-2012 04:15 PM)gore goroth Wrote:  

(01-15-2012 02:00 PM)Absentinsomniac Wrote:  ^ So you're advocating the real form of capitalism? Yeah, it'd probably be better. I still think some business regulation is necessary.

Of course, it's always me and unschool leading the anarcho-capitalist axis here on SS.

As for the future of economic systems turning to socialism, all I can say is wellthatsjustlikeyouropinionman.jpg.

Resources will always be limited. Everyone will still want to better themselves and get more shares of everything then everyone else. Also, we really have no idea what the future will be like, we can only guess. Imagine if you went back in time 150 years or so and told a slave owner that in the future things wheat would be harvested with huge metal machines operated by only one person that are powered by a product of crude oil. Think he would believe you?

No, I tend to agree with you. I don't take much to communism.

[Efs]

Where the fuck is Weswammy? I liked him, even though he was Amerikan Capitalist dog.

[aCol]

Communism would be just as intentionally flawed as capitalism, the reich, or the school system.
Although I would prefer it to capitalism IF FREEDOM IS PRESERVED!

[HeartofShadows]

Have about as much freedom as you do now.