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Did he bring this upon himself?
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Geeksta Offline
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Post: #1
Did he bring this upon himself?

Lots of people, in Ottawa at least, have been talking about how a kid named Jamie commited suicide recently because he was bullied.
He was bullied for being the only openly gay at his school, so now some people are saying that by admitting he was gay, he brought this upon himself.
Do you agree with that?

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10-30-2011 05:43 AM
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IllusoryDeath Away
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Post: #2
RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

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10-30-2011 05:44 AM
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UnschoolShqiponjë Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

Of course not. Can you link to an article so i know where this took place?

If he was in say Alabama then he should have been aware of the inevitable backlash and mentally prepared for it.

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10-30-2011 05:59 AM
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Geeksta Offline
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RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

Sad part is this took place in Canada. He wouldn't have lasted as long as he did in Alabama.
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/life/year+J...story.html

Freedom is never given; it is always taken. So for the fact that you're not a slave, don't thank those in authority. Thank someone with a "bad attitude."
-Kevin Carson

sexual abuse of sheep is baaaaaaaaad
-BaronVonStrangle

School brings us together, but it doesn't bring us together
-Derchin

We lost Vietnam cuz we didn't train our soldiers to quickscope.
-gore goroth
10-30-2011 06:03 AM
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Thought Criminal Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

Hell no. Insinuating that it's the kids fault for this? Are you fucking joking? It always amazes me, with the gay rights movement especially, that in this day and age people can be so close minded.
This kid was made fun of because he had the balls to come out and be himself. He got bullied mercilessly until he KILLED himself. As I'm writing this I can feel myself getting more and more pissed off about this.
These people are scum of the fucking earth.
(This post was last modified: 10-30-2011 06:13 AM by Thought Criminal.)
10-30-2011 06:12 AM
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Geeksta Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

(10-30-2011 06:12 AM)Thought Criminal Wrote:  Hell no. Insinuating that it's the kids fault for this? Are you fucking joking? It always amazes me, with the gay rights movement especially, that in this day and age people can be so close minded.
This kid was made fun of because he had the balls to come out and be himself. He got bullied mercilessly until he KILLED himself. As I'm writing this I can feel myself getting more and more pissed off about this.
These people are scum of the fucking earth.
I agree with you. The really sad part is how now EVERYONE is standing up for him, while they continue to make fun of the few openly gay kids at my school...
I'm not angry, I don't know why, I know I should be angry, but all this is doing is depressing me more and more.
Try reading the bible sometime. It's amazing what it says about gays. If this is where the moral code of our culture comes from, something far too many of us believe in, our tretment of gays is not going away anytime soon.

Freedom is never given; it is always taken. So for the fact that you're not a slave, don't thank those in authority. Thank someone with a "bad attitude."
-Kevin Carson

sexual abuse of sheep is baaaaaaaaad
-BaronVonStrangle

School brings us together, but it doesn't bring us together
-Derchin

We lost Vietnam cuz we didn't train our soldiers to quickscope.
-gore goroth
10-30-2011 06:23 AM
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Absnt Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

Well, it's his fault he killed himself. Because he's the one who did it. But no, it is not his fault he was being bullied which inevitably lead to him killing himself. That's fucked up, and fuck those people. I cannot fucking stand intolerance.

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10-30-2011 06:46 AM
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HeartofShadows Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

(10-30-2011 06:46 AM)Absentinsomniac Wrote:  Well, it's his fault he killed himself. Because he's the one who did it. But no, it is not his fault he was being bullied which inevitably lead to him killing himself. That's fucked up, and fuck those people. I cannot fucking stand intolerance.

This right here.
Well shit happens.

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10-30-2011 10:08 AM
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Sunbourn Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

He took his own life, there's nobody to blame but himself. He didn't have it bad at all, seems like he had a fair few friends who cared for him and had plenty of things going for him in life.

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10-30-2011 10:16 AM
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aaaaaaasd Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

Who the fuck would vote yes
10-30-2011 10:33 AM
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Efs Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

(10-30-2011 10:33 AM)BaronVonStrangle Wrote:  Who the fuck would vote yes

BVS has a heart?

(01-10-2012 02:15 PM)Maelstrom Wrote:  Efs, your nihilism is beautiful.
10-30-2011 11:14 AM
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SoulRiser Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

Being bullied can not possibly be his fault. That's the fault of intolerant idiots. Killing himself, though, was his own choice.

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10-30-2011 09:17 PM
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Spiritus_Raptor Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

(10-30-2011 06:23 AM)Geeksta Wrote:  
(10-30-2011 06:12 AM)Thought Criminal Wrote:  Hell no. Insinuating that it's the kids fault for this? Are you fucking joking? It lways amazes me, with the gay rights movement especially, that in this day and age people can be so close minded.
This kid was made fun of because he had the balls to come out and be himself. He got bullied mercilessly until he KILLED himself. As I'm writing this I can feel myself getting more and more pissed off about this.
These people are scum of the fucking earth.
I agree with you. The really sad part is how now EVERYONE is standing up for him, while they continue to make fun of the few openly gay kids at my school...
I'm not angry, I don't know why, I know I should be angry, but all this is doing is depressing me more and more.
Try reading the bible sometime. It's amazing what it says about gays. If this is where the moral code of our culture comes from, something far too many of us believe in, our tretment of gays is not going away anytime soon.

I suppose you are referring to the overused Leviticus lines? Because Leviticus was a moral code that was meant to be used by religious officials like Priest , ministers, ect ect. It doesn't set guidelines for followers.

If people would actually read the Bible instead of going by what other people said on the internet, it may be a little better.

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10-31-2011 03:27 AM
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alexander144 Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

In my opinion I don't think he should of been so open about it. I mean I don't go around telling people I'm straight so why should gay people say there gay. I don't give a fuck where they put there dicks and neither should you.

Here is what should happen:

Gay guy #1: Everyone I'm gay and proud!
Straight guy: Who gives a fuck.
Gay guy #2: I'm gay as well, I don't feel the need to tell everyone though and I'm not really proud of where I shove my penis. Stop being such an attention whore.

Sexuality is far to cared about these days when really it shouldn't be. That kid should of told nobody and when asked about his sexuality by other boys just say it's none of there business. Should he of got bullied? No of course not but they shouldn't of known in the first place.

EDIT: I just read the article and really wtf, gays are let off to easy when they do stupid shit. Demanding a boyfriend and asking why nobody was as openly gay as he was? Killing himself at 15 because of that? It's fucking romeo without juliet. He has caused his family and friend great pain because he couldn't find someone to love, at fucking 15!?!? Ok fair enough he was bullied as well, which is fucked up and hopefully the bullies realize how much of fucking assholes they were but as said before they shouldn't of known he was gay in the first place. Really though, I just don't see why everyone should know other peoples sexuality and society has to get over that shit.
(This post was last modified: 10-31-2011 08:02 PM by alexander144.)
10-31-2011 07:49 PM
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Liquid Offline
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Post: #15
RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

He should have expected it, yes,

But, no, being bullied is the fault of the bully never the victim.

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(This post was last modified: 11-01-2011 08:37 AM by Liquid.)
11-01-2011 08:36 AM
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RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

You don't go around demanding boyfriends, telling everyone you meet your gay/bisexual, and expect good will and intentions in return.

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11-01-2011 09:07 AM
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magikarp Offline
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Post: #17
RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

Even as far as expecting it goes, I think that it's relevant that Canadians tend to be somewhat more... reserved in dealing with strangers and stuff than in the US, even though it's not true that Canadians generally aren't homophobic. You can live somewhere where people aren't openly hostile to gay people they don't know and even possibly pay lip service to being against homophobia while still treating gay people they do know like shit in situations where they know they won't be called out for it. But you might only know the first half of that and assume it shouldn't be a big deal to come out.

And sure, sexuality isn't a big deal--as long as you're straight. ;P

But I mean, it's stupid as hell to say that no one cares about your sexuality in one breath and then say that you shouldn't tell people about your sexuality so they don't treat you badly in the next. And while I do genuinely think that sometimes and for some people staying in the closet for a while is the best option (especially when they're still teenagers), that isn't without its own costs. Unless you're naturally an extremely reserved person, you're likely going to have to make consistent effort to not say anything that would make people think you're gay--honestly people talk about their crushes, who they're dating, whatever all the time, it's just that for gay people that's seen as being "about their sexuality" when for straight people it's not even notable. It tends to leave you kind of closed off from people.

So you have a kid in a situation where every choice is bad and on top of that they don't even know clearly what the consequences of each choice are. But they make the 'wrong' choice and then everyone jumps on them for handling it badly.

"Do we treat straight public sex differently than we do gay public sex? Of course. Straight people are so proud of their public sex that they named a cocktail after it."
11-02-2011 03:15 AM
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alexander144 Offline
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RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

(11-02-2011 03:15 AM)magikarp Wrote:  Even as far as expecting it goes, I think that it's relevant that Canadians tend to be somewhat more... reserved in dealing with strangers and stuff than in the US, even though it's not true that Canadians generally aren't homophobic. You can live somewhere where people aren't openly hostile to gay people they don't know and even possibly pay lip service to being against homophobia while still treating gay people they do know like shit in situations where they know they won't be called out for it. But you might only know the first half of that and assume it shouldn't be a big deal to come out.

And sure, sexuality isn't a big deal--as long as you're straight. ;P

But I mean, it's stupid as hell to say that no one cares about your sexuality in one breath and then say that you shouldn't tell people about your sexuality so they don't treat you badly in the next. And while I do genuinely think that sometimes and for some people staying in the closet for a while is the best option (especially when they're still teenagers), that isn't without its own costs. Unless you're naturally an extremely reserved person, you're likely going to have to make consistent effort to not say anything that would make people think you're gay--honestly people talk about their crushes, who they're dating, whatever all the time, it's just that for gay people that's seen as being "about their sexuality" when for straight people it's not even notable. It tends to leave you kind of closed off from people.

So you have a kid in a situation where every choice is bad and on top of that they don't even know clearly what the consequences of each choice are. But they make the 'wrong' choice and then everyone jumps on them for handling it badly.

I never said nobody cared about peoples sexuality. I just stated how I think society should deal with it. However; unfortuatley it's not like how I want it to be and as such it is wise to not go around telling people you are gay and that is attention whoring aside, look at what happened to this kid (any many others, not always resulting in suicide) with bullying.

Also to do with everyone talking about dating. I agree with you on the fact people talk about it all the time, however it is easy to avoid those situations and if the people you talk to about this would feel about you differently if you were gay, maybe you shouldn't be around them in the first place.

I don't really understand your last paragraph so please go into more detail.
11-02-2011 03:40 PM
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magikarp Offline
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Post: #19
RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

(11-02-2011 03:40 PM)alexander144 Wrote:  
(11-02-2011 03:15 AM)magikarp Wrote:  Even as far as expecting it goes, I think that it's relevant that Canadians tend to be somewhat more... reserved in dealing with strangers and stuff than in the US, even though it's not true that Canadians generally aren't homophobic. You can live somewhere where people aren't openly hostile to gay people they don't know and even possibly pay lip service to being against homophobia while still treating gay people they do know like shit in situations where they know they won't be called out for it. But you might only know the first half of that and assume it shouldn't be a big deal to come out.

And sure, sexuality isn't a big deal--as long as you're straight. ;P

But I mean, it's stupid as hell to say that no one cares about your sexuality in one breath and then say that you shouldn't tell people about your sexuality so they don't treat you badly in the next. And while I do genuinely think that sometimes and for some people staying in the closet for a while is the best option (especially when they're still teenagers), that isn't without its own costs. Unless you're naturally an extremely reserved person, you're likely going to have to make consistent effort to not say anything that would make people think you're gay--honestly people talk about their crushes, who they're dating, whatever all the time, it's just that for gay people that's seen as being "about their sexuality" when for straight people it's not even notable. It tends to leave you kind of closed off from people.

So you have a kid in a situation where every choice is bad and on top of that they don't even know clearly what the consequences of each choice are. But they make the 'wrong' choice and then everyone jumps on them for handling it badly.

I never said nobody cared about peoples sexuality. I just stated how I think society should deal with it. However; unfortuatley it's not like how I want it to be and as such it is wise to not go around telling people you are gay and that is attention whoring aside, look at what happened to this kid (any many others, not always resulting in suicide) with bullying.

Also to do with everyone talking about dating. I agree with you on the fact people talk about it all the time, however it is easy to avoid those situations and if the people you talk to about this would feel about you differently if you were gay, maybe you shouldn't be around them in the first place.

I don't really understand your last paragraph so please go into more detail.

Ideally maybe, but I mean, people necessarily make decisions based on their actual situation, not what the situation might be ideally. Just acting like something isn't a big deal to other people doesn't make it not, and acting like things already are the way you wish they were can often actually get you further away from that point. "Coming out" as a big thing is like a result of the idea that being gay is a super big deal, not the cause of it, I think.

It might be easy to avoid for a time, depending on the people you see often, I guess, but the fact that there are all these things you have to avoid takes more effort and consistent attention than you might guess. (But really, I think it's not easy to avoid for most people, and not even that easy to evade unless you're cool with outright lying about it. It's just like generic small talk that adults who don't know you well might try to make. "Oh, where do you go to school?" "Do you have a boyfriend?" "Aw, a nice girl like you, why not?") And yeah, you should have friends who don't have a problem with your being gay, but you don't really have any absolute ability to choose who you're around in general.

As for the last paragraph, an analogy first. Y'know how sometimes people are like "Well you wouldn't always leave your door unlocked because that makes you a target for a burglar, so you shouldn't do X either if it makes you a target,"? The important part there is that there's no real cost to locking your door and no real benefit to not locking it. But the same thing isn't really true of staying in the closet, k'now the whole "secrecy breeds shame" thing. Also things like having no real way to make other gay friends or find people you might want to date if you're not out. Plus there's also like, the idea that by coming out you make it easier for other gay people later, even if they don't come out themselves. But my point is--staying in the closet indefinitely is not a good choice for most people, or at least not an unconflicted one; coming out is the same in a lot of circumstances. A gay kid doesn't create that situation where there just really aren't unambiguously good choices, but whatever (bad) choice they pick, they can be called out for it.

edit: Also, it gets more complicated too when people already pretty much know someone is gay. If everyone already makes fun of you for being gay, just being like, "Yeah I am, so fucking what?" gives them one less thing to get under your skin about.

"Do we treat straight public sex differently than we do gay public sex? Of course. Straight people are so proud of their public sex that they named a cocktail after it."
(This post was last modified: 11-03-2011 09:05 AM by magikarp.)
11-03-2011 09:02 AM
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alexander144 Offline
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RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

(11-03-2011 09:02 AM)magikarp Wrote:  
(11-02-2011 03:40 PM)alexander144 Wrote:  
(11-02-2011 03:15 AM)magikarp Wrote:  Even as far as expecting it goes, I think that it's relevant that Canadians tend to be somewhat more... reserved in dealing with strangers and stuff than in the US, even though it's not true that Canadians generally aren't homophobic. You can live somewhere where people aren't openly hostile to gay people they don't know and even possibly pay lip service to being against homophobia while still treating gay people they do know like shit in situations where they know they won't be called out for it. But you might only know the first half of that and assume it shouldn't be a big deal to come out.

And sure, sexuality isn't a big deal--as long as you're straight. ;P

But I mean, it's stupid as hell to say that no one cares about your sexuality in one breath and then say that you shouldn't tell people about your sexuality so they don't treat you badly in the next. And while I do genuinely think that sometimes and for some people staying in the closet for a while is the best option (especially when they're still teenagers), that isn't without its own costs. Unless you're naturally an extremely reserved person, you're likely going to have to make consistent effort to not say anything that would make people think you're gay--honestly people talk about their crushes, who they're dating, whatever all the time, it's just that for gay people that's seen as being "about their sexuality" when for straight people it's not even notable. It tends to leave you kind of closed off from people.

So you have a kid in a situation where every choice is bad and on top of that they don't even know clearly what the consequences of each choice are. But they make the 'wrong' choice and then everyone jumps on them for handling it badly.

I never said nobody cared about peoples sexuality. I just stated how I think society should deal with it. However; unfortuatley it's not like how I want it to be and as such it is wise to not go around telling people you are gay and that is attention whoring aside, look at what happened to this kid (any many others, not always resulting in suicide) with bullying.

Also to do with everyone talking about dating. I agree with you on the fact people talk about it all the time, however it is easy to avoid those situations and if the people you talk to about this would feel about you differently if you were gay, maybe you shouldn't be around them in the first place.

I don't really understand your last paragraph so please go into more detail.

Ideally maybe, but I mean, people necessarily make decisions based on their actual situation, not what the situation might be ideally. Just acting like something isn't a big deal to other people doesn't make it not, and acting like things already are the way you wish they were can often actually get you further away from that point. "Coming out" as a big thing is like a result of the idea that being gay is a super big deal, not the cause of it, I think.

It might be easy to avoid for a time, depending on the people you see often, I guess, but the fact that there are all these things you have to avoid takes more effort and consistent attention than you might guess. (But really, I think it's not easy to avoid for most people, and not even that easy to evade unless you're cool with outright lying about it. It's just like generic small talk that adults who don't know you well might try to make. "Oh, where do you go to school?" "Do you have a boyfriend?" "Aw, a nice girl like you, why not?") And yeah, you should have friends who don't have a problem with your being gay, but you don't really have any absolute ability to choose who you're around in general.

As for the last paragraph, an analogy first. Y'know how sometimes people are like "Well you wouldn't always leave your door unlocked because that makes you a target for a burglar, so you shouldn't do X either if it makes you a target,"? The important part there is that there's no real cost to locking your door and no real benefit to not locking it. But the same thing isn't really true of staying in the closet, k'now the whole "secrecy breeds shame" thing. Also things like having no real way to make other gay friends or find people you might want to date if you're not out. Plus there's also like, the idea that by coming out you make it easier for other gay people later, even if they don't come out themselves. But my point is--staying in the closet indefinitely is not a good choice for most people, or at least not an unconflicted one; coming out is the same in a lot of circumstances. A gay kid doesn't create that situation where there just really aren't unambiguously good choices, but whatever (bad) choice they pick, they can be called out for it.

edit: Also, it gets more complicated too when people already pretty much know someone is gay. If everyone already makes fun of you for being gay, just being like, "Yeah I am, so fucking what?" gives them one less thing to get under your skin about.

My point is that coming out of the closet is just saying you want dick up your ass. Does that really need to be said? I mean if I was gay I could easily avoid talking about it, your making out it's what makes a person them or something. If being gay is all there is to someone then they are just as shallow as a lot of straight people are.

Really though, you have no reason to discuss sexuality to friends unless you want them more then a friend. Also there are heaps of gay bars and such to find people, I don't see why school and work would be the only place to find a partner, assuming that is what you meant.
11-03-2011 05:41 PM
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Post: #21
RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

(11-03-2011 05:41 PM)alexander144 Wrote:  My point is that coming out of the closet is just saying you want dick up your ass. Does that really need to be said? I mean if I was gay I could easily avoid talking about it, your making out it's what makes a person them or something. If being gay is all there is to someone then they are just as shallow as a lot of straight people are.

Really though, you have no reason to discuss sexuality to friends unless you want them more then a friend. Also there are heaps of gay bars and such to find people, I don't see why school and work would be the only place to find a partner, assuming that is what you meant.

Although I very much agree with your "some people identify overmuch with their sexuality" point, it's more than just telling people you crave dick. Sure, people (straight, conservative ones) make a huge deal out of it and quite possibly compare it to having murdered 3 babies and drunk their blood, but that's somewhere in the polar opposite. Being gay is no more important or special than being straight, it's just that people see it as such.

Discussing sexuality with friends just comes up -- you can't tell when or where it will happen. And when people start asking you, you've either got to lie through your teeth about it, or just say you've never had a GF. Both of them feel like shit because you know you're lying to yourself. I've been through this quite recently.

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11-03-2011 08:15 PM
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RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

(11-03-2011 08:15 PM)Faby Wrote:  
(11-03-2011 05:41 PM)alexander144 Wrote:  My point is that coming out of the closet is just saying you want dick up your ass. Does that really need to be said? I mean if I was gay I could easily avoid talking about it, your making out it's what makes a person them or something. If being gay is all there is to someone then they are just as shallow as a lot of straight people are.

Really though, you have no reason to discuss sexuality to friends unless you want them more then a friend. Also there are heaps of gay bars and such to find people, I don't see why school and work would be the only place to find a partner, assuming that is what you meant.

Although I very much agree with your "some people identify overmuch with their sexuality" point, it's more than just telling people you crave dick. Sure, people (straight, conservative ones) make a huge deal out of it and quite possibly compare it to having murdered 3 babies and drunk their blood, but that's somewhere in the polar opposite. Being gay is no more important or special than being straight, it's just that people see it as such.

Discussing sexuality with friends just comes up -- you can't tell when or where it will happen. And when people start asking you, you've either got to lie through your teeth about it, or just say you've never had a GF. Both of them feel like shit because you know you're lying to yourself. I've been through this quite recently.

Can't you just say you don't want to talk about it? I do that a lot hahaha.
11-03-2011 11:41 PM
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RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

I do say that, but they never get the hint that I don't want to discuss it.

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11-04-2011 12:05 AM
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magikarp Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

Quote:I mean if I was gay I could easily avoid talking about it,
Forever? K bro, enjoy your alcoholism, failed marriage, and occasional rent boy/"business trip"/sleazy Craigslist hookup.

(11-03-2011 05:41 PM)alexander144 Wrote:  My point is that coming out of the closet is just saying you want dick up your ass. Does that really need to be said? I mean if I was gay I could easily avoid talking about it, your making out it's what makes a person them or something. If being gay is all there is to someone then they are just as shallow as a lot of straight people are.

Really though, you have no reason to discuss sexuality to friends unless you want them more then a friend. Also there are heaps of gay bars and such to find people, I don't see why school and work would be the only place to find a partner, assuming that is what you meant.
Eh, is it what makes a person them? No, but it's part of it, and certainly some aspects of sexuality (or heterosexuality, at least) are expected to be pretty public. It's not just where you stick your dick--it's who you date, who you'll marry (or why you're unlikely to marry), who you're going to have crushes on, to some degree how you relate to people of each gender, whatever. And yeah, for a 15 year-old, having never had an obvious interest in the opposite sex may or may not be conspicuous. For someone in their late teens or early 20s it almost certainly is.

So it's like, what you like to eat isn't a big deal, right? Say I were a vegetarian, or would only eat kosher food or only halal food, but for whatever reason I couldn't tell anyone. But food is a big part of people's lives and social gatherings and things! So either I just have to avoid eating with other people entirely, and then that would obviously limit a lot of what I could do and also probably make other people think I don't like them, or I have to seemingly randomly refuse to eat things, which would probably start to piss people off if you consistently won't eat half of what they cooked for no apparent reason. So this benign thing would eventually start to cause problems, and that's for something with no particular stigma attached to it.

Quote:Can't you just say you don't want to talk about it? I do that a lot hahaha.
This kind of shows you don't know what you're talking about (and I'm honestly not trying to be mean, because it is something that's probably not obvious having never been in that situation). But it's like leaving your facebook interested in blank--consistently avoiding conversations like that is a pretty good sign someone is a raging homosexual, especially if they're not typically shy. It's not like the only way for people to know you're gay is for you to outright tell them.

"Do we treat straight public sex differently than we do gay public sex? Of course. Straight people are so proud of their public sex that they named a cocktail after it."
11-04-2011 12:22 AM
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Post: #25
RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

Question is, why shouldn't you talk about it? I know for me that the first few months of consciously registering my orientation was scary as fuck, and it was not helped by going to a Christian school at the time. Talking is what got me through that. 'sides, I've found that the longer you stay closeted, the more insecurities you develop and, somehow, the more likely you are to become one of those overly-feminine gay guys, or overly-manly gay gals. (Anecdotal evidence, don't shoot me)

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11-04-2011 06:42 AM
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RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

(11-04-2011 12:22 AM)magikarp Wrote:  
Quote:I mean if I was gay I could easily avoid talking about it,
Forever? K bro, enjoy your alcoholism, failed marriage, and occasional rent boy/"business trip"/sleazy Craigslist hookup.

(11-03-2011 05:41 PM)alexander144 Wrote:  My point is that coming out of the closet is just saying you want dick up your ass. Does that really need to be said? I mean if I was gay I could easily avoid talking about it, your making out it's what makes a person them or something. If being gay is all there is to someone then they are just as shallow as a lot of straight people are.

Really though, you have no reason to discuss sexuality to friends unless you want them more then a friend. Also there are heaps of gay bars and such to find people, I don't see why school and work would be the only place to find a partner, assuming that is what you meant.
Eh, is it what makes a person them? No, but it's part of it, and certainly some aspects of sexuality (or heterosexuality, at least) are expected to be pretty public. It's not just where you stick your dick--it's who you date, who you'll marry (or why you're unlikely to marry), who you're going to have crushes on, to some degree how you relate to people of each gender, whatever. And yeah, for a 15 year-old, having never had an obvious interest in the opposite sex may or may not be conspicuous. For someone in their late teens or early 20s it almost certainly is.

So it's like, what you like to eat isn't a big deal, right? Say I were a vegetarian, or would only eat kosher food or only halal food, but for whatever reason I couldn't tell anyone. But food is a big part of people's lives and social gatherings and things! So either I just have to avoid eating with other people entirely, and then that would obviously limit a lot of what I could do and also probably make other people think I don't like them, or I have to seemingly randomly refuse to eat things, which would probably start to piss people off if you consistently won't eat half of what they cooked for no apparent reason. So this benign thing would eventually start to cause problems, and that's for something with no particular stigma attached to it.

Quote:Can't you just say you don't want to talk about it? I do that a lot hahaha.
This kind of shows you don't know what you're talking about (and I'm honestly not trying to be mean, because it is something that's probably not obvious having never been in that situation). But it's like leaving your facebook interested in blank--consistently avoiding conversations like that is a pretty good sign someone is a raging homosexual, especially if they're not typically shy. It's not like the only way for people to know you're gay is for you to outright tell them.

First off I said people could meet at gay bars and such so the whole "your never going to find anyone if you don't tell everyone" is bullshit unless you can prove me wrong. Your food example is a bit confusing, the only situation that comes to mind out of what you said are a bunch of a guys are trying to lick some girl out and the gay guy refuses so they all get offended. Maybe you can give me a better example?

Maybe it is because I am in Australia or something but over here we don't just talk about sex all day and the people you would talk about it with wouldn't give a shit if you were gay or not. Is it different where you all live or something? Is everyone hellbent on knowing what you want to do in your personal life? Otherwise I don't see why these situations are so hard to avoid.
(11-04-2011 06:42 AM)AWOL Wrote:  Question is, why shouldn't you talk about it?

Because there are more important things to life then knowing what everyone wants to do sexually.
(This post was last modified: 11-04-2011 03:47 PM by alexander144.)
11-04-2011 03:46 PM
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RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

(11-04-2011 03:46 PM)alexander144 Wrote:  First off I said people could meet at gay bars and such so the whole "your never going to find anyone if you don't tell everyone" is bullshit unless you can prove me wrong. Your food example is a bit confusing, the only situation that comes to mind out of what you said are a bunch of a guys are trying to lick some girl out and the gay guy refuses so they all get offended. Maybe you can give me a better example?

Maybe it is because I am in Australia or something but over here we don't just talk about sex all day and the people you would talk about it with wouldn't give a shit if you were gay or not. Is it different where you all live or something? Is everyone hellbent on knowing what you want to do in your personal life? Otherwise I don't see why these situations are so hard to avoid.
I was actually getting at something other than finding someone to date when I was talking about how there are aspects of heterosexuality that are very public. One is this double standard where there are all sorts of socially important relationships and activities and stuff that make it obvious the people involved are straight, but when it comes to gay people then sexuality apparently has nothing to do with anything ever. But the more important parts of what I was getting at is that there are things that are typically considered other people's business that sexuality affects, and that since heterosexuality is just part of the expected pattern of people's lives, in nearly all cases you eventually have to actively lie to explain why you're not doing those things.

As for the gay bars thing, yes, you can meet people there, if you live in or can get to a big enough city, are old enough to drink or have a fake, are into the bar scene, don't have substance abuse problems that make hanging out in bars a bad idea, are confident enough to make a move in the span of a night. But those things are not universally true, nor is it always a good way to meet people you actually have things in common with. And I'm not even trying to prove coming out is absolutely necessary for dating or for anything else--just that there are obvious benefits to it that have nothing to do with being an attention whore or compulsively indiscreet.

Honestly having trouble taking it in good faith that you legitimately think the analogy was that literal, but I'll bite. The point was how something that is not in itself a big deal can become a big deal when there are ways in which it's socially central; this is true of both food and romantic relationships. It's like if I'm 30 years old and never married, never expressed any interest in the opposite sex, never gave a reason for why I didn't want to marry, people would assume various things: I'm gay, or I don't place any value in family, or I don't want to grow up. (Although certainly how big of a deal any of those assumptions are depends on culture and who in particular you're dealing with.) The main line of analogy was that you can't inconspicuously just not eat meat just like you can't just inconspicuously not participate in any social or cultural manifestations of heterosexuality.

Wasn't exclusively talking about sex, though. There are a huge number of other things that are related to sexuality and would give away the sexuality of the person talking, which I've mostly already talked about. And people want to know some things about your personal life, sure--it kinds of overlaps a bit with your public life and asking general questions about relationships or whatever isn't actually seen as very private.

"Do we treat straight public sex differently than we do gay public sex? Of course. Straight people are so proud of their public sex that they named a cocktail after it."
(This post was last modified: 11-04-2011 06:51 PM by magikarp.)
11-04-2011 06:43 PM
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RE: Did he bring this upon himself?

(11-04-2011 03:46 PM)alexander144 Wrote:  Because there are more important things to life then knowing what everyone wants to do sexually.

1. Neurology would disagree with you, but then it remembered that breathing and blood pumping happen automatically.
2. Without it being talked about, we'd still all get bashed to shit if word were to get out. Coming out is an important part of developing self-esteem in a vastly heterosexual society.
3. I live in Australia too mate. Sex gets talked about a lot. Not to the point of superficiality that it does in the US of A, but still enough to make it a major defining characteristic. Certainly I'd argue that it should not change whether or not you'd pursue a relationship with someone, but it should certainly change which kind of a relationship
4. Have you ever been to a gay bar? Sure, it's fun, but at the end of the day it's a regular bar, and everyone who isn't sad and lonely is just there for a good hard fucking. Being open is the only reasonable way to find a lasting, meaningful relationship as a gay man.
5. Dude. It's the 21st century. At what point did freedom of speech cease to mean a thing? People talk about what they want.

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11-04-2011 11:44 PM
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