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Pacifism
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Pacifism

I've called myself a pacifist but that isn't really correct. I'm anti-militarist and slow to fight back. I've no problem with people defending themself but it needs to be a rational defense. Defense doesn't mean pro-active violence though. Pro-active attempts at stopping violence, yes.

WWI was very stupid. WWII wasn't. Hitler had the intention of taking over the world, not just take revenge as in WWI. That's not to say war is good. Suffering is bad and should be avoided if possible.

"I would rather maim than kill, hurt than maim, intimidate than hurt, avoid than intimidate"

What's your opinion on war and peace?
09-30-2006 01:33 PM
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Doc Johnson Offline
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Post: #2
 

Peace is always desirable. OTOH, one should probably not just let someone kick them continuously in the nuts. Bad business, that.

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09-30-2006 01:42 PM
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Happy Camper Offline
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I don't agree with the war in Iraq, I don't agree with the war in Vietnam, I do agree with the US involvement in WWII but I really wasn't for bombing Japan.

I like to identify myself as a pacifist but I don't like to seem superior to those that would approve of violence. I mean...I got into an argument a while back with one of my polar opposite friends. He was trying to convince me that I wanted to use my right to bear arms so I could shoot someone in defense if I were to be raped or mugged in some alley. But really I think I would rather be raped/mugged than shoot someone. Now that may sound stupid and it may be interperted that I'm willing to let people walk all over me. That isn't true, I learn tae-kwon-doe for self-defense (and just plain fun). But...maybe I take the "turn the other cheek" thing too literally (holy crap! did I just reference the bible literally?). I'm against the death sentence and all that crap too.

Everyone loves peace. Some of us are more willing to take a blow and not get involved. I guess I can identify myself as a pacifist. But I don't like to stamp the label on myself. Others have been known to do it for me.

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09-30-2006 01:48 PM
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Post: #4
 

If someone is kicking you in the nuts you should stop them with the minimal amount of violence needed. That means once their down don't kick them in the face.

In war that means use the minimal amount of violence and don't slaughter everybody. For example, don't carpet bomb native villages.

Lao Tzu Wrote:This means that war is conducted like a funeral.
When many people are being killed,
They should be mourned in heartfelt sorrow.
That is why a victory must be observed like a funeral.
I never understood why we celebrate winning of wars. I can understand celebrating heroes that risked their lives for the common good. Death comes on both sides. The winner is hated by the loser and the loser is hated by the winner.

Happy Camper Wrote:But really I think I would rather be raped/mugged than shoot someone
I understand what you're saying, I feel that too. I think that people can respond with violence in those situations but it doesn't mean they must. When you kill someone, the potential for them to change (at least in this life) is gone. A dead rapist won't rape again but will never have the chance to become a better person. A live rapist may rape again but that's what rehab is for.

Gandhi's prime teaching wasn't nonviolence but courage. He said it was better to be violent than to be a coward. But better to be nonviolent than both.
09-30-2006 02:07 PM
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Doc Johnson Offline
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Anybody here ever read The War Prayer, by Mark Twain?

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09-30-2006 10:30 PM
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well, peace would be nice but i think its pretty much impossible. humans just can't evolve out of those primal survival instincts fast enough, so i think we're stuck with war. but yeah, violence is not inherently bad. as long as it doesn't become irrational overkill (Cold War Arms Race) or be used for stupid reasons (WWI, Vietnam, Korea, Sudan, Iraq) then its ok. not all of its effects are bad, a lot of great new technology has come from military R&D, (and no i don't mean nukes) and since its so much a part of human nature theres always an incentive to work at it, besides just money.

and about the whole mugging thing, if someone tried to rob/rape/beat the hell out of me, damn straight i'd fight back. and not with the "minimal amount" or anything like that. i'd do whatever i had to, whether its a gun, knife, or anything. and its not enough to just knock him down, you have to make sure that he doesn't do it again. i'm not saying kill him, but there's nothing wrong with hurting him pretty bad. (although if it was some pedophile or child rapist, then he's never getting back up.)

I think Buenaventura Durruti is a pretty cool guy. eh kills fascists and doesnt afraid of ruins.
The quickest way to kill a revolution is to wait for it.
10-01-2006 01:08 AM
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Freak Offline
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I kind of agree with RebelNerd on the mugging/raping/beating thing. I think it IS very hard for people to change, I mean people are naturally stubborn, and arrogent. Some crimes, people should try and rehibilitate criminals, but somethings you should take a big chance with.

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10-01-2006 02:57 AM
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Rebelnerd Wrote:and about the whole mugging thing, if someone tried to rob/rape/beat the hell out of me, damn straight i'd fight back. and not with the "minimal amount" or anything like that. i'd do whatever i had to, whether its a gun, knife, or anything. and its not enough to just knock him down, you have to make sure that he doesn't do it again. i'm not saying kill him, but there's nothing wrong with hurting him pretty bad. (although if it was some pedophile or child rapist, then he's never getting back up.)

EXACTLY...

Fucking pedophiles, I am going to kill one one day....


Having fantasies about a child is their own buisness, but if they act it out, I will do everything in my power to make sure that they can never get back up again.

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10-01-2006 03:00 AM
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Rebelnerd Wrote:well, peace would be nice but i think its pretty much impossible.
I don't agree with that one bit. I think peace is hard to attain, but it is possible. Our primal instincts are towards conflict, not a certain manifestation of it. In todays society we have professional sports instead of gladiator fights. Both do the same thing for people but modern sports are harmless in comparison to gladiator fights. I can't remember what book I was reading but it said that when one king of England banned football because it was "corrupting" youths, the murder rate suddenly shot up. The king decided that corrupted youth were better than murderers. Our primal instincts will always be with use but we are learning to use it in harmless ways.

Rebelnerd Wrote:you have to make sure that he doesn't do it again
Evil is ignorance. Hurting someone won't help them learn what is right. It would deter them from doing bad, but not for the right reasons.

When I defend myself violently, I'm not doing it because the attacker deserves to ge hurt. I'm doing it so I'm not being hurt anymore.

cradle Wrote:I will do everything in my power to make sure that they can never get back up again.
Not all pedophiles rape, and almost all child rapists are situational offenders. Which means most child rapists won't do it again. People who do bad things need our sympathy not hate. Evil acts are committed due to ignorance. Killing them will get rid of their potential for being good. They may continue doing bad but that is why we need to give criminals rehabilitiation not punishment.
10-01-2006 11:49 AM
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Freak Offline
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They need rehibilitation AND punishment.
Take the situation offenders, they need to be punished for their crimes.
And I'm pretty sure he was refering to the pedofiles that rape 10 year olds, or THAT kind of situation.

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10-01-2006 03:06 PM
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Rebelnerd Offline
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Kirby Wrote:I don't agree with that one bit. I think peace is hard to attain, but it is possible. Our primal instincts are towards conflict, not a certain manifestation of it. In todays society we have professional sports instead of gladiator fights. Both do the same thing for people but modern sports are harmless in comparison to gladiator fights. I can't remember what book I was reading but it said that when one king of England banned football because it was "corrupting" youths, the murder rate suddenly shot up. The king decided that corrupted youth were better than murderers. Our primal instincts will always be with use but we are learning to use it in harmless ways.

i just don't think thats true. look at the world today, we've got so much war, murder, and death over stupid little things, i just don't think humans are built for peaceful cooperation. look at the cold war, when we built enough weapons to destroy the world then kept on building. people can hide it with "civilized" society, but deep inside there's still those primitive agression instincts.

Kirby Wrote:Evil is ignorance. Hurting someone won't help them learn what is right. It would deter them from doing bad, but not for the right reasons.

When I defend myself violently, I'm not doing it because the attacker deserves to ge hurt. I'm doing it so I'm not being hurt anymore.

evil isn't "ignorance," its the expression of a set of values different from your own. the mugger may feel that his actions are justified. everybody does what they think is best, and when those values clash sometime violence is necessary. and if your fighting to not be hurt anymore, what do you think will happen when he gets up, angrier than ever? the only way to truly protect yourself from people like that is to get rid of them.

Kirby Wrote:Not all pedophiles rape, and almost all child rapists are situational offenders. Which means most child rapists won't do it again. People who do bad things need our sympathy not hate. Evil acts are committed due to ignorance. Killing them will get rid of their potential for being good. They may continue doing bad but that is why we need to give criminals rehabilitiation not punishment.

well, the ones that do do it more than once i have no sympathy for. none at all. and if someone tries to kill me, i'm not going to feel sorry for them, i'm going to hurt them, maybe even kill them, because thats what needs to be done.

and if someone continues doing bad things to people, then no i definitely won't help them. some people are beyond rehabilitation. i'm not saying i support the death penalty, because i don't, but when it comes down to just you and him, then do whatever it takes. killing is not inherently bad.

I think Buenaventura Durruti is a pretty cool guy. eh kills fascists and doesnt afraid of ruins.
The quickest way to kill a revolution is to wait for it.
10-02-2006 12:45 AM
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Most kids are molested by family members and friends of the family.

Violence/conflict are only a part of our biological heritage. So are nurturing and cooperation. These things are not mutually exclusive.

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10-02-2006 02:46 AM
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Freak Offline
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Oh, yeah. :slapshead: Forgot only 2% of all child rapists are strangers. Rolleyes
Then I believe, its about 60% (approximately) The parents, themselves.
And the rest is caused by friends of the family.

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10-02-2006 03:00 AM
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So... killing the child rapist could potentially create an orphan... Now that's a dilly of a pickle to be in.

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10-02-2006 03:04 AM
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not really. if the parents are abusing the kid then maybe its better for the kid to be orphaned, then another, kinder family can adopt him.

I think Buenaventura Durruti is a pretty cool guy. eh kills fascists and doesnt afraid of ruins.
The quickest way to kill a revolution is to wait for it.
10-02-2006 03:19 AM
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freak-of-nature13 Wrote:They need rehibilitation AND punishment.

Yeah...that's why I told the judge to go easy on my step-dad. Punishment and consequences are meant to be a part of rehabilitation (learn a lesson, try to change). But when it comes to punishment just for the sake of punishment (that bastard is sick, make his life miserable!) then it's not doing anyone justice. It's just trading crime for crime.

I may never want to face my step-dad ever again but he has child support with other families to pay. If he doesn't work, they suffer. [And so he's on probation for ten years.]

Yeah, I take my beliefs pretty literally. Or at least make sure I apply them before I preach them.

Let's do the time warp again!
10-02-2006 06:45 AM
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You are definitely one of the good ones. Smile

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10-02-2006 06:53 AM
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Rebelnerd Wrote:i just don't think thats true. look at the world today, we've got so much war, murder, and death over stupid little things
Peace is possible but hard to attain. We may never attain it.

Rebelnerd Wrote:deep inside there's still those primitive agression instincts.
That's what I said. We have aggressive urges but we don't have to go around killing each other.

Rebelnerd Wrote:evil isn't "ignorance," its the expression of a set of values different from your own
Unless you consider all sets of values equal, then it is ignorance. I think my set of values is correct and others wrong. They don't follow mine and so are ignorant because they don't know well enough to do so. That doesn't mean that any set of values is the absolute truth but that people consider their values to be the correct ones.

Quote:what do you think will happen when he gets up, angrier than ever?
He's not going to get up. He's probably going to be unconscious, or at least dazed, and lieing on the ground.

Rebelnerd Wrote:is to get rid of them.
Getting rid of them doesn't mean we have to kill them. Put them in jail or rehabilitate them.

Happy Camper Wrote:But when it comes to punishment just for the sake of punishment (that bastard is sick, make his life miserable!) then it's not doing anyone justice. It's just trading crime for crime.
Exactly.
10-02-2006 06:56 AM
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Kirby Wrote:Not all pedophiles rape, and almost all child rapists are situational offenders. Which means most child rapists won't do it again.

You do know that 87% of all convicted sex offenders recommit thier crimes right? A child rapist has a very high likelyhood of raping again.
10-04-2006 03:41 AM
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Post: #20
RE: Pacifism

Pacifism is stupid and leads to extreme acts of self destruction. Remember the radicle pacifist quaker who through kerosene over himself and burned hisself alive in a protest against the Vietnam war.

It's also the middle classe's attempt to control the resistance movements. Pacifists try to silence those who violently react to police and government violence. Which is counterproductive and pointless.

Fight back.

To be an anarchist, is to suffer greatly. To be a black woman is to suffer secretly. To be the earth, is to suffer silently.

I wish no harm on anyone, but those whose harmful ways will not stop without the same harm.

It's time we kill this cancerous system, before it kills us and everything left of gaia. Rise from our immaturity and take back our autonomy!

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01-30-2012 05:20 AM
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LedoS Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Pacifism

I think that peaceful revolution doesn't work.

Fucking cops come up at ya and spray your face in shit and you just sit there like a dicksucker and the result is still fucking same, nothing changes.

Violent revolution needs a good leader, weapons, ammunition and strong fighters willpower to fight for freedom.
01-30-2012 05:33 AM
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Efs Offline
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RE: Pacifism

(01-30-2012 05:33 AM)LedoS Wrote:  I think that peaceful revolution doesn't work.

Fucking cops come up at ya and spray your face in shit and you just sit there like a dicksucker and the result is still fucking same, nothing changes.

Violent revolution needs a good leader, weapons, ammunition and strong fighters willpower to fight for freedom.
^This.
But the violence used has to be reasonable. A revolution doesn't mean go smashing windows of a small business and robbing from other people.
Violence against the state who use it agaisnt us, I say.

(01-10-2012 02:15 PM)Maelstrom Wrote:  Efs, your nihilism is beautiful.
01-30-2012 01:52 PM
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RE: Pacifism

(01-30-2012 01:52 PM)Efs Wrote:  
(01-30-2012 05:33 AM)LedoS Wrote:  I think that peaceful revolution doesn't work.

Fucking cops come up at ya and spray your face in shit and you just sit there like a dicksucker and the result is still fucking same, nothing changes.

Violent revolution needs a good leader, weapons, ammunition and strong fighters willpower to fight for freedom.
^This.
But the violence used has to be reasonable. A revolution doesn't mean go smashing windows of a small business and robbing from other people.
Violence against the state who use it agaisnt us, I say.

this^^

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01-30-2012 02:00 PM
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LedoS Offline
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RE: Pacifism

Efs, that kind of violence I meant(Against government), not the fools who destroy small businesses like in London, that's just foolish and afaik it was funded/provoked/done by government itself, hence the cops didn't give 2 shits about it.
01-30-2012 11:17 PM
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RE: Pacifism

I'm agreeing with the idea if that your using violence, it should be for self-defense and for the good of people as a whole. Destroying random shops and burglarizing businesses will solve nothing. Targeting those in power and in office, will. Of course, peaceful protests are the best way to start, but of course, depending on where you live, the government might shoot you dead for doing something as simple as that.

And when that happens, its time to fuck your leaders up until they give in, because now you know they won't stop for a peaceful revolution, they'll keep going until you're subdued, so you keep fighting until they stop, run away, or die.

When your defending yourself against an attacker who could possibly kill you or anyone around you, doing anything in your power to subdue or incapacitate him or her is sufficient. When you're going beyond keeping them down and mutilating your attacker, that's when I think you've taken it too far.

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02-07-2012 01:20 PM
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Post: #26
RE: Pacifism

Violent revolution is mostly pointless. Any type of fundamental change in the structure of society must be done by changing opinions. Unless the violence is preceded by this change, the only difference will be the names of the people in charge.

In essence what I mean is that if a cop has unjustly entered your house you may have the right to shoot him but that doesn't mean it's a smart thing to do.

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05-28-2012 04:23 AM
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RE: Pacifism

(05-28-2012 04:23 AM)Kirby Wrote:  Violent revolution is mostly pointless. Any type of fundamental change in the structure of society must be done by changing opinions. Unless the violence is preceded by this change, the only difference will be the names of the people in charge.

In essence what I mean is that if a cop has unjustly entered your house you may have the right to shoot him but that doesn't mean it's a smart thing to do.

I agree its mostly pointless though violence tends to solve problems faster and is overall more satisfying.
Yeah violent revolution is pointless as the militias will take over and then force their bullshit on everybody else and its right back to square one though the revolution is more about appeasing every bodies anger and gaining satisfaction.

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05-28-2012 04:52 AM
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RE: Pacifism

(09-30-2006 01:33 PM)Guest Wrote:  WWI was very stupid.

Stupid for whom? WWI is often called a "pointless" war, and the causes are often depicted to be the result of some unintentional diplomatic fuck-up (a relic of the Sidney Fay theory of the cause of WWI, which is not used by most modern historians yet still taught widely in primary and secondary education), but whether it had a point or not depends on one's point of view.

Aggressive German foreign policy was the main cause of the war (via the blank check they gave Austria-Hungary), so one can argue that the war was stupid from that point of view - it was a tragic miscalculation on the behalf of the Germans, who had thought that they would be able to defeat France quickly as a part of the Schlieffen Plan, a plan that went sour after the First Battle of the Marne halted their drive towards Paris. However, for the French, whose nation was under direct threat, the war effort was hardly stupid. Or for the British - maintaining the balance of power in Europe was a genuine goal, and a logical one.

I guess my point is that it is often to say that war is without point. One hears hippy-type people say that all the time. In reality, war is a complex thing. Wars are fought for different causes with different goals. Some may be stupid, others may not. I dislike absolute pacifism for this reason - it attempts to simplify a complex subject. I am fine with people who are pacifists for moral reasons, and I am fine with those who think that we should seek to avoid war, but absolute pacifism is not something I politically agree with.

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11-18-2013 12:51 PM
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Post: #29
Pacifism

Only thing about World War 1 I have to say is how silly those Ottomans were. Sure, we wacked the french and british and australian pretty good, but the Ottoman Empire was not equipped for such a war at all.

Along with Lawrence down in Arabia...

I'm not fond of pacifists. I find that most of the time, they'll just end up as serving as human shields since they refuse to react against actions taken against them. Plus, I also think pacifists to be selfish for their refusal to fight. Your own ideal of not using violence can endanger the lives of many people simply because you refuse to fight back. You think the Americans would have had their independence if they just kept sending letters?

To clarify, I'm speaking of total absolute pacifism. Or defeatist pacifism, which I hate even more. The "What can I do, it's fate/God's will/how things happen" attitude. I'd personally describe myself along these lines(using TV tropes):
-Minored In AssKicking
-Badass Bookworm

Sprinkle in a bit more logical evil(because the logical thing isn't always the "right" thing), and it'd be a rough description.

Plus, If a war happens and diplomacy doesn't solve it in the beginning, then you might as well hop on the band-wagon because somebody is going to lose.

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11-18-2013 03:23 PM
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Post: #30
RE: Pacifism

(11-18-2013 03:23 PM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  I'm not fond of pacifists. I find that most of the time, they'll just end up as serving as human shields

IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT OUR TROOPS THEN FEEL FREE TO STAND IN FRONT OF THEM.
____________________________________________________________________

Anyways, Hitler's intentions in WWII were not, strictly, to take over the world. He was upset one day and decided to go against the rules that were in place to limit Germany's military and people told him to stop, but they didn't tell him by putting a 100 foot long cannon barrel in his face and tell him to stop so he just kept pushing the envelope.

There were numerous times that Hitler sent letters to America that he was sorry for something that happened, one thing was in Texas iirc and I know he sent a letter saying how he had absolutely no involvement in the Pearl Harbor attack and he was sorry for our loss.

People think that Hitler was this strictly eveil guy from the momeny he was born, he wasn't. He was a member of the Nazi party for quite some time before he rose to power, and he only rose to power because he was a good public speaker. After he rose to power he told all the jews that it would probably be a good idea if they left the country because shit was about to go down...HE ARRANGED RIDES FOR THEM OUT OF GERMANY.
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I just hate it when people think Hitler was pure evil and there was no other side of him because he ate that side. He was simply a really great public speaker.

The less you try to control things, the less you need to.

Boredom is the #1 enemy of learning. Therefore, school is the #1 enemy of learning.

"Bodies fucking fuck."~Night.Artist

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Hidden stuff:
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Hidden stuff:

"free speech under the constitution only guarantees the government won't stop him saying it and does not guarantee his right to say things and have no consequences at all as a result. also i completely doubt that he is motivated solely by "i'm saying it because i can" and is probably motivated by a more shitheady motive like "i think it's funny to annoy people and Rustle Le Jimmies™ and is just hiding behind the first amendment to try to deflect any consequences or make you realize that being allowed to annoy people is a superior moral right. you can still disdain someone for doing things for dumbarse wankery purposes and you have evne more right to ban and insult them for it" ~Trar's friend about Potato.

Thanks for the diploma… can I have my childhood back?

I’d love to have a battle of wits with you… but I hate to fight the unarmed.
11-18-2013 10:54 PM
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