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Pro-School Arguments
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Slick Offline
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Post: #151
Re: Pro-School Arguments

Basically what he said is this:

Quote:"If children didn't go to school, how would it benefit our economy?"

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07-26-2010 08:35 AM
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Prince Rilian Offline
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Post: #152
Re: Pro-School Arguments

Slick Wrote:Basically what he said is this:

Quote:"If children didn't go to school, how would it benefit our economy?"
Entrepreneurial spirit would abound.

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07-26-2010 12:57 PM
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username01462781 Offline
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Post: #153
Re: Pro-School Arguments

If we allowed children to leave school, how would they learn? How would they socialise? We find most of social skills in school, including friends.(I obviously don't believe this, just wanna see answers)

P.S I bet this has been asked A LOT, but I am too lazy to seep through the past eleven pages.
07-26-2010 03:48 PM
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SoulRiser Offline
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Post: #154
Re: Pro-School Arguments

Quote:We find most of social skills in school, including friends.
I found low self-esteem in school because of bullies, that took me a few years to overcome, which btw I only managed to overcome once I was out of school.

Also, does your definition of 'social skills' include imitating morons all day? Because people who actually "be themselves" tend to get made fun of.

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07-26-2010 05:15 PM
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Auberon Offline
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Post: #155
Re: Pro-School Arguments

Quote:"If children didn't go to school, how would it benefit our economy?"
How does it necessarily benefit the economy if they do? His response is assuming that more years of schooling translates into greater skill at a profession, and thus improvement to the economy. Anti-school doesn't have to benefit the economy in order to be a better position than pro-school, as it isn't proven that compulsory education benefits the economy either.

Most people just assume that pointing out their unsound logic = dodging the question, though, so here goes:

First of all, let us examine the government's education expenditures - here's a helpful graph of primary and secondary school spending, per student:
Quote:http://nces.ed.gov/edfin/images/graph1.gif
That's for one year. So twelve times ~$10,000, $120,000, is a good estimate of the average total cost for one student's primary and secondary education. Add $10,000 more if he or she attended kindergarten.

So, in order to pay off his or her "share" of the government's education-related spending, a graduating student has to put at least 120,000 dollars into the country's economy.

Now, with that in mind, the current configuration of schools is far from ideal or valuable in producing professional workers. A prominent reason for this is that students usually aren't able to intensively study subject areas relating to any profession until after high school. K-12 education is, with minimal variation, a set curriculum of standards established by the government. In order for students to receive instruction in performing a specific job, they're generally required to pay and attend a college.

So, for example, if you want to be some type of physicist, your high school will probably offer a one-year course on the most basic concepts of motion and thermodynamics. If you want to be an accountant, you'll probably get an elective class out of a textbook and no experience in actual financial management. If you want to be a musician, you can join the school band for a few years and play the music the teacher picks for you - and so on, and so on.

In any case, these supposed "job skills" people acquire by being forced to go to school are almost always offered in an environment completely detached from the corresponding professions in the real world. And even if you complete a high school degree with some field in mind to pursue afterward, you'll have been extremely lucky to have applied ten percent of your 12-year schooling to gaining any experience in that field. The rest is safe to classify predominantly as wasted time. Taking the pessimistic outlook on human development and assuming that school is the only place students can acquire occupational skills, how is paying 120,000 dollars per student to waste over ninety percent of their time beneficial to the economy?

It isn't, and it becomes even more ridiculous when you consider that a large group of those students don't want to come to school. When you're spending money on people who don't want you to spend money on them, while in the middle of financial crisis, no less - you should stop spending money on them. Our current process forces unwilling people into an environment that is wasteful by nature, throws a credit card at them and hopes that somehow, some way, they'll pick up some skill that will help them pay for it. It's a dumb investment, and people who make dumb investments lose money, even when they're government institutions. It's just that the educational system can get away with blaming its losses on the students being "failures".

Really, eliminating compulsory education would be much better for the economy than keeping it. Even if K-12 education kept exactly the same curriculum and was still free to any students who wanted to attend, expenses would lower. And in case those not attending did fulfill the minimum-wage McDonald's stereotype, they wouldn't have an unspoken $120,000 debt to the educational system that they were unable to pay.

Linki Wrote:If we allowed children to leave school, how would they learn? How would they socialise? We find most of social skills in school, including friends.
How did people learn and socialize before school existed? Clearly it isn't necessary for developing either skill, or humanity would have understood nothing of the surrounding world until 1852, and we'd all live alone in caves.

Sarcasm aside, though, I think it's possible to see how children would learn outside of school by observing a child who has not yet attended school. Most of them are curious people who ask a lot of questions, and I've never heard a child younger than six say that he or she "hated learning". It's always the school-age kids who hold that opinion, which says quite a lot.

As for the social aspect, school doesn't foster social skills so much as it chastises and punishes people for not having them. I got through it (well, I left two years early) having minimal social inclination, and I found that both kids and teachers were calling me weird behind my back - though, when the teachers did it, it was always "in my best interest" and written on my report card to my parents.

Anyhow, regardless of the intention, school doesn't help anybody with personal relationships; it just creates an atmosphere in which people judge one another on them. Kids can easily make friends outside of school by doing something that interests them or just going to park (et cetera...), and that way their friendships won't be poisoned by being forced into a popularity contest.
07-26-2010 07:20 PM
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username01462781 Offline
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Post: #156
Re: Pro-School Arguments

Great points from both of you.

I'll be sure to use these when I argue with teachers.
07-27-2010 03:46 PM
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Trar Away
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Post: #157
Re: Pro-School Arguments

Linki Wrote:Great points from both of you.

I'll be sure to use these when I argue with teachers.
Most likely they'll use doubletalk and psychological tactics to try and win (especially if it happens during school hours), unless they're one of those rare breeds that actually like intelligent discussion.
12-24-2010 04:30 AM
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Faby Offline
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Post: #158
Re: Pro-School Arguments

Excellent display of necromantic wit.

Let go of all desire for the common good, and the good becomes common as grass.

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12-24-2010 04:31 AM
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Rastko Offline
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Post: #159
Re: Pro-School Arguments

Is there any way you could avoid using ageist terms such as "minor(s)" and "adult(s)." At least put them in the quotation marks, because I do feel insulted when someone refers to me as an untermensch.

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02-05-2011 02:25 AM
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Fractomancer Offline
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Post: #160
Re: Pro-School Arguments

"If children didn't go to school, how would they socialize?"
Uhm, being forced to be with other people also forces you to be with people that you don't like => fighting and bullying.
I do not consider forced socialization a good thing. Children do socialize with others outside school and most people's entire group of friends isn't from school alone.

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02-05-2011 03:06 AM
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Miller0700 Offline
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Post: #161
Re:

David B. Wrote:
Quote:look, school has its goods and its bads, and yeah, it needs to change, ALOT, but the very idea is not bad.
Yes . . . it IS a bad idea - right down to concept.

The growth of knowledge and understanding is not a bad idea - the idea of education is to nurture the natural development of knowledge by inspiring and developing the humans innate sense of curiosity and exposing them to the real world as a means to prepare them for the real world.

School institutions are secluded from the rest of society, and are designed specifically with the intentions to create a life-dependant, predictable, consumer bases and human resources to help feed the economy and power the corporate machine by dumbing down its citizens into doing "limited functions" rather than being complete well-rounded self-reliant individuals - yes, school is a disaster to any self-respecting individual from the ground up. It's not something that fails to do what its supposed to do - it's something that succeeds to do exactly what it sets out to do - and THAT is the problem.
True

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03-04-2011 12:06 PM
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Miller0700 Offline
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Post: #162
Re: Re:

starfish Wrote:
Legion Wrote:7. Who the hell came up with school in the first place?
8. Why was he or she allowed to live for torturing children like that?

Those are some good ones.

I think it's really interesting that I learned this little story IN SCHOOL. Not often that I learned anything even slightly interesting there.

A recent history of school

It's the industrial revolution. People are POURING into the cities from farms looking to make money and have a better, higher standard of living. Kids work in factories right along with their parents. They need to, such is the high demand for workers and families needing the extra income. Then technology gets better, and less employees are needed to operate the machines. There arn't so many jobs for kids anymore, and as a result there are tons of young, poor, bored kids running around the streets commiting crimes and just fucking things up in general. What to do? How do you keep a whole generation occupied untill they're needed for the workforce? And public school was invented, as well as the concept of being "underage". Up untill then only children from wealthy families attended school. The parents of poorer families needed their kids to work.

School is a mass scale babysitting, brainwashing institute that exists because there are too many fucking people and not enough things to do. We are a surplus generation. No one is really needed, and everyone is expendible or replaceble.

I'm going to fight this, personaly by not sending my children to school. I hope to lead by example. If we all lead by example, maybe we will start a movement. It's hard controlling or convincing others, especialy when they believe in something. All you can really do is choose not to believe it yourself, which is probably the most important thing.
Love this

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07-11-2011 08:51 AM
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jnkbortka Offline
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Post: #163
Re:

Dark Soul X Wrote:7. Who the hell came up with school in the first place?
8. Why was he or she allowed to live for torturing children like that?

Those are some good ones.

7) the Ancient Greeks I think Biggrin
08-04-2011 01:38 AM
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bluee Offline
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Post: #164
RE: Pro-School Arguments

Hmm thanks for sharing this wonderful post really like ur post it is quite helpful discussion in this thread thanks u so much for the impressive post......

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01-04-2012 03:18 AM
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Miller0700 Offline
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Post: #165
RE: Pro-School Arguments

Lots of arguments still come to mind that my teachers like to bring up:

"You can't learn whatever you want in school because it isn't all about you."

"School encourages kids to learn outside of the box by teaching them things they never seen before."

"Most kids change career choices in college anyways." (Look above)

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01-04-2012 09:39 AM
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aCol Offline
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Post: #166
RE: Pro-School Arguments

If it isn't even about me, why should I care about it then? If its not related to me, I do not have a reason to do so.
School does not teach me to think outside the box, it teaches me to think inside the box. This argument is a lie.
This is a lie too.

Well, I wouldn't do this in a normal discussion, but well I am tired now...

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01-04-2012 10:20 AM
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Miller0700 Offline
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Post: #167
RE: Pro-School Arguments

I can understand.

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01-05-2012 10:11 AM
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Endeavourer Offline
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Post: #168
RE: Pro-School Arguments

Love this thread. Now l'm just going to post this useless post because it makes my post count number go up. Teehee ^.^

No, but seriously, the arguments that teachers and adults give for pro-school is pretty much like the arguments that Christians give for pro-Christianity. Mainly fear mongering tactics and logical fallacies. Razz
05-13-2012 04:50 AM
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Post: #169
Pro-School Arguments

in the future the children will be born with the Internet chip in their brain so they can just look up the answer and know and their "teachers" mom and dad will teach them to walk and talk and everything else will be the Internet chips OH!!!!! and robots

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11-17-2013 02:00 PM
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Post: #170
RE: Pro-School Arguments

holy shit it's sand village girl!

The less you try to control things, the less you need to.

Boredom is the #1 enemy of learning. Therefore, school is the #1 enemy of learning.

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Post: #171
RE: Pro-School Arguments

(11-17-2013 10:37 PM)Heil_Kaiba8921 Wrote:  holy shit it's sand village girl!

Back from the dead,fridge and/or cellar!

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(06-14-2013 08:02 AM)Potato Wrote:  watch the fuq out, we've got an "intellectual" over here.

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11-18-2013 03:06 AM
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Post: #172
RE: Pro-School Arguments

(11-22-2006 11:39 AM)R00t Wrote:  If we could initiate it on a mass scale, I'd agree with you. With that said, I don't know of a program that could be done like that, that would work.
Parents would likely force their children into school anyway.



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11-25-2014 06:34 PM
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Martins Offline
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Post: #173
RE: Pro-School Arguments

[quote='Guest' pid='25657' dateline='1163215433']
Pro-School Arguments

1. "If children didn't go to school, how would they socialize?"

Children should be free to choose who they socialize with. They should socialize with adults, their age group, and their family. School often interferes with the freedom of children to associate freely. School's can provide protection, by keeping out the people children shouldn't socialize with, but school's shouldn't put restrictions on the good people that children can socialize with.


2. "If children didn't go to school, how would they learn to do X?"

School can supplement other learning methods. The Internet is a rich and powerful resource for learning independently or in groups. For most of history, learning was done without a school. Schools are relatively new, since the 1800's. How could anyone say that a school is a better learning instrument than the Internet? On the Internet, a child can find a tutor in another country for free. Who's to say that the learning is not as good as if it were in a school, as long as they get the answers right?


3. "If children didn't go to school, how would they become responsible adults?"

Schools are not responsible for creating responsible adults. Are all the adults in school responsible adults? How many 'responsible adults' are there in school? It's as if you are making all the adults in school look perfect, and all the children look like they are not responsible. How do you know children are not responsible? Children can learn responsibility by helping at home, volunteering, military service, starting a business, community work, etc. School is not the only place to learn responsibility.


4. "You should be glad that you have schooling, what about the millions that don't?"

I have never been glad that I had 'schooling', because I know schooling did a lot of harm to my life. I know many who feel the same way. You are saying that schooling can do nothing wrong, nothing bad, and schooling is always good for all people. That's a very narrow view. What about the students that have killed themselves because of school? What about the teachers who have sex with students? What about the indoctrination in school? What about the seventy plus school shootings? Were those all loners? Should I be glad that I send my children to a school that has gangs, group rape, drugs, pedophiles?


5. "School is just something that everyone has to do."

I agree that there is something everyone has to do, and I agree that is get an education. I don't agree that school is the only way to get it.

6. "Without a high school diploma getting (a job)/(into college) will be very hard."

College is not the right choice for everyone. If you look at the "College Dropouts Hall of Fame" online, there are dozens of people who did not go to college, and they are all famous, rich and successful. That begs the question - does school make someone successful, or does the person make themselves successful?

Why should college be the destination for everybody? Does it make sense that every one - millions of people - go to college? Does that mean everyone who is in college should be in college?

What about the skilled trades? I know many tradespeople who learned from their parents. They never took a course. They apprenticed. I know car mechanics who learned from friends or family. Are they not qualified?

Do you need to go to college to run your own business? Do you need to go to college to create a website, run an online store?
03-31-2015 10:17 AM
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Post: #174
Pro-School Arguments

"Tradition" barely even counts as a valid argument. You know what else is a "tradition"? Circumcision, arranged marriage, fundamentalist Islam, homophobia... The list of dangerous and horrible "traditions" is infinite.

their pee should hv been shot out like a ki blast breaking the rocks

oh and also No one has any rights. We're free, rights create invisible restrictions. But we live in a society where the majority accepts rights to be true.
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