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I wasn't good enough at encouraging people to be kinder, and removing people who refuse to be kind. Encouraging people is hard, and removing people creates conflict, and I hate conflict... so that's why I wasn't better at it.

I was a very, very sensitive teen. The atmosphere of this forum as it is now, if it had existed in 1996, would probably have upset me far more than it would have helped.

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Pro-School Arguments
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Pro-School Arguments

Pro-School Arguments

1. "If children didn't go to school, how would they socialize?"

Answer: This argument is based on the assumption that children are incapable forming relationships outside of a certain building. School can allow socialization but children can also socialize outside of school.


2. "If children didn't go to school, how would they learn to do X?"

Answer: Parents teach children to read all the time and parents could probably teach other basic skills as well. More complex subjects would require a knowledgeable individual, but those individuals are everywhere. Also realize that if school is voluntary, it does not mean that everybody will stop going.


3. "If children didn't go to school, how would they become responsible adults?"

Answer: What is "responsible"? At school it seems that responsibility is the ability to shut up and do what you're told. School can have the effect of reducing responsibility. Students are pressured to get high marks so they can "succeed" in life but this pressure drives some to cheat. The meaning of responsibility doesn't seem to apply to most people at school: "Worthy of or requiring responsibility or trust; or held accountable".


4. "You should be glad that you have schooling, what about the millions that don't?"

Answer: Americans many rights where many countries do not. But just because America is relatively free from trespassing on rights, does not mean that an American should ignore breaches of their rights because "at least you have some."


5. "School is just something that everyone has to do."

Answer: The only reason that minors must go to school is because adults have decided they should.


6. "Without a high school diploma getting (a job)/(into college) will be very hard."
Answer: Society commonly, and in many cases rightly, believes that drop-outs have a lack of motivation and so they are not easily employed. But just because someone hasn't completed school does not mean that the person is an idiot. The argument can be considered to be against school. If completion of high school is not a completely accurate indicator of intelligence, then initially judging intelligence on completion of high school would be stupid.
11-11-2006 01:23 PM
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7. Who the hell came up with school in the first place?
8. Why was he or she allowed to live for torturing children like that?

Those are some good ones.

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I want a list pro-school arguments that we can then refute in some sort of FAQ.
11-11-2006 01:30 PM
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Good idea.

3. "If children didn't go to school, how would they become responsible adults?"

What is "responsible"? The ability to shut up and do what you're told all day for a paycheck? Because the original meaning of "responsible" doesn't seem to apply to most people I remember from school: "Worthy of or requiring responsibility or trust; or held accountable".

4. "You should be glad that you have schooling, what about the millions that don't?"

That's like telling an innocent person in jail to be thankful for having a roof over his head when there are people starving in the streets.

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11-12-2006 06:05 AM
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For some reason. I feel this was made, just for me.

1. "If children didn't go to school, how would they socialize?"

Answer: This argument is based on the assumption that children are incapable forming relationships outside of a certain building. School does a very bad job at socializing anyway. Due to segregation of students into age groups, children become unable to form good relationships with those younger and older than them.

Dissected answer:
I've checked PubMed, Google, and Ask. None of them returned data to provide backup for this statement. The only argument about age segregation, begs the question: Is there any correlating evidence for the workplace, and when placed in the workplace, does this actually apply, since they are ultimately placed with people different then them, not by choice?

2. "If children didn't go to school, how would they learn to do X?"

Answer: Learning happens in all parts of life and it is stupid to assume that it can only happen in a certain building. Parents teach children to read all the time, parents could probably teach other basic skills just as well. More complex subjects would require a knowledgeable individual, but those individuals are everywhere. Also realize that if school is voluntary, it doesn't mean that nobody will go to school.

Dissected answer:
It's only half the complete statement.
"Learning happens in all parts of life, and it is stupid to assume that it can only happen in a certain building", fails to mention that learning in a combining all of the elements in one building, could possibly speed up the process. More complex subjects would require a knowledgeable individual, which there is no evidence I have been presented with, that can prove that schools, especially colleges, fail to provide.

3. "If children didn't go to school, how would they become responsible adults?"

Answer: What is "responsible"? At school it seems that responsibility is the ability to shut up and do what you're told. School can have the effect of reducing responsibility. Students are pressured to get high marks so they can "succeed" in life but this pressure drives some to cheat. The meaning of responsibility doesn't seem to apply to most people at school: "Worthy of or requiring responsibility or trust; or held accountable".

Dissected answer:
1. Students are pressured to get high marks, true. I'm failing to see how this is a bad thing. If society does not ask us to progress, then how shall we progress, or progress in what we wish to? Is it not a good idea to succeed in as many areas as possible?
2. Do you have any correlating data to prove that it pressures them into cheating?
3. Do you have any correlating data to prove that they are not responsible either?


4. "You should be glad that you have schooling, what about the millions that don't?"

Answer: That's like telling an innocent person in jail to be thankful for having a roof over his head when there are people starving in the streets.

Dissected answer:
What about a criminal in jail?

5. "School is just something that everyone has to do."

Answer: The only reason that minors must go to school is because adults have decided they should. Going to school is not natural law.

Dissected answer:
Neither is higher education, philosophy, or abstract thinking. Yet, these are all crucial elements of society.

6. "Without a high school diploma getting (a job)/(into college) will be very hard."

Answer: This can be interpreted to be against school. Society commonly, and in many cases rightly, believes that drop-outs have a lack of motivation and so they are not easily employed. But just because someone hasn't completed school doesn't mean that the person is an idiot. Many people we consider to be the wisest never had mandatory schooling.

Dissected answer:
And what are the statistical odds that everyone who quits highschool, or forgoes mandatory schooling, will be that much more intelligent?
The wisest people were just that; the wisest. For the most part, not members of the general population.

Okay.
Now that was fun.
And now that I've had my fun.
I'm going to first explain a part, then going to fix some things.

Why am I asking for correlating data?
Because simply because you say something is true, doesn't mean it is true. You can scream about how school damages someone socially, but unless you can provide studies or data to back up your statements, you will consistently fall in debate. Keep in mind lack of data to the contrary, doesn't prove or support your hypothesis. It just doesn't mean your opponent can bring up much of an argument either. So, it's my opinion that if you ever want people to take you serious, you're going to need evidence to prove your points. Now, I know SoulRiser has some articles (14 seemingly valid articles from the looks of it, relating to school. Although, I must note, I've only given them tiny checks, although the more I go over them, the less on a rhetoric level I like them.)

Now. Let's go back and refute some of the things I said earlier.
Just because I'm that bored.

"Learning happens in all parts of life, and it is stupid to assume that it can only happen in a certain building", fails to mention that learning in a combining all of the elements in one building, could possibly speed up the process.

Yet, there's no evidence to support this statement either. One would be quick to note that most skills for a trade were traditionally used for apprenticeships for many years. There's also the possibility of distributing the workload over more buildings, or providing different outlets for education, that would allow students to learn in a more efficient manner.

More complex subjects would require a knowledgeable individual, which there is no evidence I have been presented with, that can prove that schools, especially colleges, fail to provide.

True, but there's no evidence to support that they will have the training either.
Well. Technically in the US there is, but that's more based on the requirements of becoming a teacher, and there are ways around that.

1. Students are pressured to get high marks, true. I'm failing to see how this is a bad thing. If society does not ask us to progress, then how shall we progress, or progress in what we wish to? Is it not a good idea to succeed in as many areas as possible?
How is progressing into what society wants, progressing into what we want to?
While the concept of the universal man is quite admirable, it is impractical. Perhaps a better idea, would be to focus on one area, and learn that instead?

2. Do you have any correlating data to prove that it pressures them into cheating?
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0609/p01s02-woap.html?s=u
http://www.school-for-champions.com/cha ... ating2.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/18/educa ... f8&ei=5088
http://www.glass-castle.com/clients/www ... under.html

What about a criminal in jail?
The average student is not a criminal.

Neither is higher education, philosophy, or abstract thinking. Yet, these are all crucial elements of society.

Which can be independent of schooling.

And now, onto a few points I have.

"I fthey didn't go to school, how would they get to college?"
With 50% of students dropping out of college, that generally isn't a problem, even if they do get in.
http://www.act.org/news/releases/1998/04-01-98.html

"If they didn't go to school, where would they stay?"
Lack of schooling, doesn't mean lack of education, nor does it mean they will have no place to stay. When a child is very young, where do they stay? Why can't this be continued?
11-12-2006 04:50 PM
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Thanks for that post ChaosSplintered, I'll get around to changing my post when I'm not so tired.
11-12-2006 05:04 PM
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Wow, watching Chaos play Devil's Advocate with himself is quite something Biggrin

That was some really good analysis there.

Quote:Now, I know SoulRiser has some articles (14 seemingly valid articles from the looks of it, relating to school. Although, I must note, I've only given them tiny checks, although the more I go over them, the less on a rhetoric level I like them.)

I think most of those are more technically opinions/rantings than actual articles Smile

Quote:4. "You should be glad that you have schooling, what about the millions that don't?"

I don't think my "person in jail" metaphor was a particularly good answer to that... but I can't think of anything better right now Razz

But anyway, if it was an actual criminal, then he/she would have done something to end up in that situation, whereas an innocent person is more like a student being forced into school against their will. Not exactly something provable in any way, but not everyone responds well to factual type answers.

Which just made me think of something - maybe we need both? An "emotional" response as well as factual evidence?

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11-13-2006 03:52 AM
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The answer to, "You should be glad that you have schooling, what about the millions that don't?" is that this idea is not a pro-school argument. It is simply a reason why you should go to school, and it assumes that school is a good thing. Thus, it can not be used as a pro-school argument.

It cannot be used even to prove that you should go to school without a proof that either school is good or that scarce things are always good.
11-13-2006 12:59 PM
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I think schooling is good but learning outside of school is better. If I lived in a poor country I would love a chance to go to school because I wouldn't be learning anything outside of it. But because we live in rich countries, we can get a better education outside school.
11-13-2006 01:02 PM
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If we could initiate it on a mass scale, I'd agree with you. With that said, I don't know of a program that could be done like that, that would work.
11-22-2006 11:39 AM
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Who said anything about mass scale? You can't just change everything in a few years. The change would have to be made by communities.
11-22-2006 12:02 PM
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Kirby Wrote:Who said anything about mass scale? You can't just change everything in a few years. The change would have to be made by communities.

And for the rest of society? Change it community by community, would be slow, cumbersome, and has much chance to be repealed.

I understand you can't change everything in a few years, but the way I see it, that's the only time frame the CAN/AM/EURO Education System is going to remain like this, which in my opinion, is going to lead to having to change many of the arguments you possess.
11-29-2006 01:04 PM
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Quote:And for the rest of society? Change it community by community, would be slow, cumbersome, and has much chance to be repealed.
What other way is there? Reform is needed, and should be done, but it will not fix everything.

Quote:that's the only time frame the CAN/AM/EURO Education System is going to remain like this
How is it going to change?
11-29-2006 01:16 PM
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Kirby Wrote:How is it going to change?

More technology is being made available. I can see many different alternatives to education such as being trained by a computer, or home schooling being made available. I can also see fundamental changes in the curriculum; more job-focused and skill focused work in the higher grades, and more amusement in the lower grades.

Kirby Wrote:What other way is there? Reform is needed, and should be done, but it will not fix everything.

Figure out some way to do it on a mass scale, or modify the carcass of the current system.
11-29-2006 01:56 PM
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That's what I want to do.
11-29-2006 02:08 PM
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Kirby Wrote:I think schooling is good but learning outside of school is better. If I lived in a poor country I would love a chance to go to school because I wouldn't be learning anything outside of it. But because we live in rich countries, we can get a better education outside school.
Interesting point.

I think that the basic form of the present system does work tolerably for a fair number of people. With reforms and improvements, it might not be so bad for them. But for others, (like us), the fundamental basis of teacher- and classroom-dominated instruction just isn't satisfactory.

The more examples there are of people learning outside of traditional institutions, that are publicly known about, the less people will have a conception of learning that only includes school. In addition to refuting "school is necessary" arguments with logical analysis (which people may just refuse to comprehend), showing vibrant examples of learning going on in other contexts may help win them over.
11-29-2006 06:16 PM
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Quote:1. "If children didn't go to school, how would they socialize?"

Answer: This argument is based on the assumption that children are incapable forming relationships outside of a certain building. School can allow socialization but children can also socialize outside of school.

Not always. My childhood, for example, was a sheltered one. I never met kids close to my own age at church because my parents never went. Not that I blame them, but that's neither here nor there. I never became very well-acquainted with the children of the people my father works with except for one, and that's BECAUSE we've gone to the same schools for years.

Am I worse off for it? Probably. I become extremely nervous in large groups, and only speak to about three people on any given day (not including my parents.) If I had been homeschooled, I'd be a recluse locked up with my computer.

Long story short: school, for me, has been my only chance to meet people. As much as there is wrong with the system, school has been a bit of a blessing for me because I never got to meet anyone anywhere else.

Quote:2. "If children didn't go to school, how would they learn to do X?"

Answer: Parents teach children to read all the time and parents could probably teach other basic skills as well. More complex subjects would require a knowledgeable individual, but those individuals are everywhere. Also realize that if school is voluntary, it does not mean that everybody will stop going.

Indeed. I could read, add, and subtract at the age of four. I think I could write [sloppily,] too, but I can't remember for sure.

Quote:5. "School is just something that everyone has to do."

Answer: The only reason that minors must go to school is because adults have decided they should.

Indeed. I've thought about skipping school to go read under a tree at the park, and then the next day rubbing it in the face of the teachers I particularly dislike how much I learned without their "guidance." Then, I'd probably get some sort of disciplinary action taken against me for skipping school, but it would be well worth it. Then, there's what my father would say about it (my mother probably wouldn't care because I'd be doing something more productive than I would be at school even though it's not what the laws say I should be doing at that time of day.) He'd probably ground me until graduation.


Just my 2cents on the matter.
01-23-2007 11:20 AM
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"More complex subjects would require a knowledgeable individual, but those individuals are everywhere."

Yes, those individuals can be called teachers, and are found in schools.

That said, I think I've read somewhere that schools developed into a system of training workers for factories during the industrial revolution and thereafter, at least in the United States. Think about it, school does teach obedience, which is a good skill for workers to have from the standpoint of a CEO who wants to crank out the most amount of product/profit from each worker. So, yeah, some things that happen in schools are pretty terrible, and I definitely see where you'd like to make them optional.

However, the US, and many other developed countries (with the notable exception of China), are heading away from an industry-based economy and increasingly toward an information-based economy (for instance, we largely no longer make products, instead we supervise the creation of those products, which occurs in a foreign country like China or Bangladesh). We are still giving kids an education designed to make them into factory workers, though.

It will be interesting, then, to see how schools change over the next twenty-five years or so. As creativity and thought become more valued in the workplace, one might imagine that obedience and routine that were important in factories and are a big part of schooling even today will start to disappear. Perhaps then, many of the problems that people on this site have with schools may go away.
02-27-2007 08:07 AM
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ecluett1 Wrote:"More complex subjects would require a knowledgeable individual, but those individuals are everywhere."

Yes, those individuals can be called teachers, and are found in schools.

That said, I think I've read somewhere that schools developed into a system of training workers for factories during the industrial revolution and thereafter, at least in the United States. Think about it, school does teach obedience, which is a good skill for workers to have from the standpoint of a CEO who wants to crank out the most amount of product/profit from each worker. So, yeah, some things that happen in schools are pretty terrible, and I definitely see where you'd like to make them optional.

However, the US, and many other developed countries (with the notable exception of China), are heading away from an industry-based economy and increasingly toward an information-based economy (for instance, we largely no longer make products, instead we supervise the creation of those products, which occurs in a foreign country like China or Bangladesh). We are still giving kids an education designed to make them into factory workers, though.

It will be interesting, then, to see how schools change over the next twenty-five years or so. As creativity and thought become more valued in the workplace, one might imagine that obedience and routine that were important in factories and are a big part of schooling even today will start to disappear. Perhaps then, many of the problems that people on this site have with schools may go away.

You hit the nail on the head, dude. Very nice.

As for the whole indusrty part, I've never thought of that before. It WILL be very very interesting to watch what happens, scince it's in our generation still.
02-27-2007 10:12 AM
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ecluett1 Wrote:As creativity and thought become more valued in the workplace, one might imagine that obedience and routine that were important in factories and are a big part of schooling even today will start to disappear. Perhaps then, many of the problems that people on this site have with schools may go away.

That would be nice, although it wouldn't be happening for the right reasons. It would still be valuing productivity over people.

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02-28-2007 04:59 AM
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ecluett1 Wrote:Yes, those individuals can be called teachers, and are found in schools.
I agree. I understand the requirements for becoming a teacher. My biology teacher worked at a haemotology lab and has a degree in science. All teachers in Ontario need a degree of some sort and work experience. My physics teacher has a masters degree and he worked with many new fields of physics when he was at university. My computer science teacher was a programmer back in the day.

I have no doubt that my teachers know what they are talking about. What I meant was that a teacher is not necessarily someone that works in a school.

ecluett1 Wrote:some things that happen in schools are pretty terrible, and I definitely see where you'd like to make them optional.
That's the key. We have problems with school but the main problem is that it is compulsory. The second problem is the lack of power the students have. In high school we can choose some courses but we cannot deviate from the curriculum. Having a guide for what to learn is good but having to absolutely follow the curriculum is bad in that it takes flexibility away from the teacher to accommodate different students.

ecluett1 Wrote:we largely no longer make products, instead we supervise the creation of those products
I would say that the West does more than supervise. This is superprofits in effect. When rich countries exploit poor countries they distribute the profits to the people and workers in the rich country. What happens is that all but the poorest people are taken care of and radicalism is suppressed. Comparing the size of labour movements today and before the recent thrust of globalization, the movements today are pretty shabby. They still exist and unions are still powerful in many places but socialist political parties aren't very socialist.

ecluett1 Wrote:As creativity and thought become more valued in the workplace, one might imagine that obedience and routine that were important in factories and are a big part of schooling even today will start to disappear. Perhaps then, many of the problems that people on this site have with schools may go away.
I agree with Soul, don't be so optimistic. The division of labour increases a societies creative power but lowers individuals.
02-28-2007 06:49 AM
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i don't consider my education a right. With the right to remain silent, i have a choice if i wish to shut up. This is not the case with school. Telling me that i have the right to an education, just means that i don't have a choice in being enslaved for my entire youth. Also, as for the statement about school being an important part of a person's social life, how come everytime i open my mouth, the school tells me to shut the hell up?
03-01-2007 04:33 AM
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thoughtmaker Wrote:i don't consider my education a right. With the right to remain silent, i have a choice if i wish to shut up. This is not the case with school. Telling me that i have the right to an education, just means that i don't have a choice in being enslaved for my entire youth. Also, as for the statement about school being an important part of a person's social life, how come everytime i open my mouth, the school tells me to shut the hell up?
I read somewhere else a different argument that public school was not a right. It was that public school could not be a right because public school requires that somebody be a teacher, which would infringe on someone else's rights if nobody else wanted to be a teacher. A right can't require the breaking of other rights.

I thought of another reason after having read the above reason. It's really the same idea as the reason above, just expressed differently. Government gains power by taking away the rights of people; this is the nature of government. Rights are things that humans naturally have, like the right to free speech and the right to kill one's neighbor. In the United States we give up the latter but keep the former. We cannot give up public schooling because it is not a natural thing. If the government did not exist, we would not have public schooling.
03-01-2007 07:59 AM
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If government didn't exist public schooling could exist... and unfortunately it could exist in the same form as it is now. That is because schools are local, not federal, affairs. Free public schooling can be given by a town or community just as much as a government can.
03-01-2007 01:03 PM
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Kirby Wrote:If government didn't exist public schooling could exist... and unfortunately it could exist in the same form as it is now. That is because schools are local, not federal, affairs. Free public schooling can be given by a town or community just as much as a government can.
School probably did not exist 100,000 years ago. Free speech did.

Hmm... this brings up something else that I had missed. Which kind of "free" is in "free public schooling"? Free speech or free beer?
Vatman Wrote:It has been a pleasure reading through this all, very insightful. The problem I see with the whole education debate is not whether or not the public school system is horrible. But what are the alterinative's? Private tutoring is impossble due to the masses, Apprentaceship(sp?) is pretty much in the same chatagory. Home schooling is a possiblility but then do parents want to and can parents adiquatly teach their children? The only thing I see reasonable is to have a nonbinding advanced school system starting after elementary school. In which a student is given the seven years that we have in this country from middle school to high school to enter public semonar's that progress in a certain order. And a whole specialized system working around that idea...(ill toy with that idea later.)

Other then those idea's what other possible choise can we have for education? And then there is the matter of equalitiy. This country cant have some kids that get to go to school and some kids that cant feel like it, there is a reason why we are not legaly allowed to smoke till 21 (I would say drinking as well...but uhh...well I dont quite get that one) How can the age group of 13-18 be prooven to know what is best for themselves?
School somehow gets people to study something they don't want to study. Why do we need to get people to study some curriculum that they don't want to study? And is this curriculum really important past the abilities to read and write?

Consider first what you personally would do without compulsory school. After figuring that out, you can think about how you could fix the entire system.
03-01-2007 09:11 PM
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wsgosset Wrote:School probably did not exist 100,000 years ago. Free speech did.
That doesn't mean it couldn't have existed.
03-02-2007 06:28 AM
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Kirby Wrote:
wsgosset Wrote:School probably did not exist 100,000 years ago. Free speech did.
That doesn't mean it couldn't have existed.
Now I realize the difference!

If free public schooling is "free" as in "free beer," not as in "free speech." Free education in both ideas makes sense, but the idea of free public schooling as in money does not make sense because school costs money. It has to be funded by taxes, so it requires a government, so it is a right that only functions within a government.

If it's "free" as in "free speech," the meaning is not too clear. It indicates some sort of liberty related to schooling, maybe the ability to choose to attend or to attend regardless of ethnicity, economic level (which would make it related to the other kind of free) or sex. If it means that there is no restriction beyond money on who can attend, it requires one person to interact with another person. While people are allowed to bear firearms, they do not have the right to require someone else to sell them a firearm.

I think it's easiest to think of it this way: Everything is a right, including the right to kill one's next door neighbor with a machine gun while being shot from a cannon on March 1 and having The Beatles perform live for you for free as background music. Some of these rights can be accomplished alone, like my right to shoot myself from a cannon. Some require other people, like my right to have a friend. It generally does not make sense to keep the second kind of right when we form a government because it may infringe on someone else's right. (I must also have the right not to have a friend.)

I have to go soon, so I haven't thought the next part through. A right can be thought of as a change that is allowed. There are some things for which we can keep the second type of right. For example, we can keep the right...bye
03-02-2007 08:59 AM
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Not everything is a right. Every action that does not interfere with the liberty of another is a right. If you want me to savagely beat you to death then that is my right to do so. If you don't, then murdering you would not be a right.

Also, school does not have to be funded by taxes. And even so, taxes are not necessarily enforced by a government. Like I said it is possible to have school that is run by the community. During the Spanish revolution, the Marxists and anarchists set up a communist style health care system that enabled all people within the area of service to get modern health care. Getting treated was completely free but people were asked to contribute what they could. And it worked. Even in very poor towns that couldn't afford to give any money at all for health care, the network of autonomous hospitals and doctors shared money so even poor areas could get health care. This scheme could work just as well for school.
03-02-2007 10:07 AM
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What are soup kitchens then?
03-02-2007 11:35 AM
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Post: #30
 

brilliant answer, kirby...
03-02-2007 11:38 AM
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