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Honesty
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Happy Camper Offline
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Honesty

I went to the deli next to our school today and ordered a green apple jones soda and peanut butter cups. I made sure to ask for a dollar's worth of change because I had to take the bus home. The lady gave my change and then a dollars worth in quarters. Being the quick head math whiz that I am, I told her she gave me an extra dollar and gave it back. The person behind me called me nice and said I was honest. The two guys behind her called me an idiot who wasn't going to get anywhere in this world.

I have my own stance on this but as many many people have complained to me, I'm an idealist and can't expect everyone else to be.

The question:

Is it really so ridiculous to try and play an honest role in modern society?

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11-18-2006 09:55 AM
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Rebelnerd Offline
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its just a dollar, nothing wrong with taking it. maybe if there was a lot more money at stake it would be good to give it back, but the way i see it lying is just another tool people can and should use to survive.

I think Buenaventura Durruti is a pretty cool guy. eh kills fascists and doesnt afraid of ruins.
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11-18-2006 10:15 AM
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Post: #3
 

Well, a good lie.
A dollar doesn't matter, but serious things like getting in trouble, people have problems seeing the difference when it comes to whites lies and bad lies when it's their ass on the line.

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11-18-2006 11:11 AM
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Post: #4
 

well its still good being honest.

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11-18-2006 11:23 AM
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why? sometimes a lie can save your life. and all that guidance counselor bullshit about how lies will always be exposed, well i can tell you from experiance that that's a lot of crap. you just have to get good at it. just like morality, whether a lie is "good" or "bad" depends on the opinion of who's telling it.

I think Buenaventura Durruti is a pretty cool guy. eh kills fascists and doesnt afraid of ruins.
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11-18-2006 11:46 AM
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I don't think it's ridiculous to be honest. It's ridiculous that those people had such a problem with you giving the dollar back. My question is: why did it bother them so much?
11-18-2006 12:55 PM
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Post: #7
 

thats the honest way to go but i wouldnt have noticed anyway

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11-18-2006 12:58 PM
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Happy Camper Wrote:green apple jones soda
You are a god for liking Jones Soda. I have never found anybody else who likes it.

Rebelnerd Wrote:lying is just another tool people can and should use to survive.
I agree for survival. But buying a snack isn't survival.

Happy Camper Wrote:Is it really so ridiculous to try and play an honest role in modern society?
People criticize idealists because, while their ideas may be good, they won't work in modern society. I see this as a condemnation of modern society, not idealism.

Rebelnerd Wrote:just like morality, whether a lie is "good" or "bad" depends on the opinion of who's telling it.
Lying for unfair gain is unethical. By unfair, I mean for reasons other than absolute or practical necessity. It is unethical because it denies the freedom of others. Intentionally lying or deceiving creates false thoughts in others. These false thoughts deny the freedom to make informed decisions. Lying also treats people solely as a means to and end.
11-18-2006 01:37 PM
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This reminds me of this one time I was with a friend at a KFC Drive Thru... He ordered some small chicken thing, and when the order came, they gave us this huge bucket of chicken which cost like 10x as much as what my friend actually ordered. So I was all like "errr did you order thi...", and then he gave me this weird grin and nodded at the guy handing us the bucket, making sure he thought that was indeed the right order. Laugh

Well, him and his bro couldn't finish all that chicken themselves so they shared it with a lot of people... and I was pretty hungry so I didn't complain Razz I feel sorry for the KFC dude who got the order mixed up though, I only found out later that they'd probably have made him pay for it... None

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11-19-2006 02:00 AM
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Rebelnerd Offline
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Post: #10
 

Kirby Wrote:
Rebelnerd Wrote:just like morality, whether a lie is "good" or "bad" depends on the opinion of who's telling it.
Lying for unfair gain is unethical. By unfair, I mean for reasons other than absolute or practical necessity. It is unethical because it denies the freedom of others. Intentionally lying or deceiving creates false thoughts in others. These false thoughts deny the freedom to make informed decisions. Lying also treats people solely as a means to and end.

that's sort of a paradox that you said. if lying is unethical because it restricts other's freedom, that means you consider freedom to be important. but at the same time, you support a system of ethics that restricts freedom a lot more than lying. i think that lying can restrict freedom, but in some cases it can't. and remember, other people can lie too, so its not like you're taking power away from them. i think that there's nothing inherently wrong with lying, its only as evil as what its used for. like in this case, restricting a person's freedom a tiny bit in order to break free of an ethical system that's even more restrictive is ok, because its the lesser of two evils.

I think Buenaventura Durruti is a pretty cool guy. eh kills fascists and doesnt afraid of ruins.
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11-19-2006 02:32 AM
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Rebelnerd Wrote:that's sort of a paradox that you said. if lying is unethical because it restricts other's freedom, that means you consider freedom to be important. but at the same time, you support a system of ethics that restricts freedom a lot more than lying.

The freedom to do what? Screw people over when you feel like it? ... Or was that a bit too blunt? Razz

EDIT: But I agree that lying to save your own or someone else's life can be good depending on the circumstances. It all depends who you're lying to Razz

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11-19-2006 06:11 AM
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Rebelnerd Offline
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Post: #12
 

right, it can be helpful. and since its ok to lie sometimes, then making huge general rules like "lying is evil" is the opposite of freedom. so by lying, you help to fight that mentality. what you consider to be "screwing someone over" may not be what someone else does. and saying that your opinions are right and others' are wrong is, of course, not something we support. i consider ethics to be just another form of control, one that should be fought the same as any other.

I think Buenaventura Durruti is a pretty cool guy. eh kills fascists and doesnt afraid of ruins.
The quickest way to kill a revolution is to wait for it.
11-19-2006 06:37 AM
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OK, my take on this matter is very broad. If something you can say or do is going to hurt someone in some way, it's probably a bad thing. If it's a choice between hurting the one or the other, then you've got a bit of a dilemma on your hands Razz

In my case, it's a personal rule. I'm not telling you not to lie. You do what you think is right (or whatever). Ethics are good as long as you don't try to force your ethics on anyone else. If someone wanted me to be honest about something that I didn't want to tell them about, I'd have to tell them that I don't want to tell them and be honest about that. That's just me.

I used to lie to people when they asked me about things I didn't want to tell them. It got annoying because I couldn't remember who I told what Giggle ... it's less hassle to just avoid issues you don't want to deal with rather than make stuff up.

But I'm straying out of context here...

Personally, if I noticed I got extra change, I'd tell the person about it because I don't need the extra change. But since we're on the topic, what if I took that extra change and went and gave it to some homeless person... would that make it right? (assuming it was wrong to take it)

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11-19-2006 07:45 AM
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right, but the thing is that everybody has a different set of ideas about what's right and wrong. just because one person thinks lying is wrong doesn't mean it actually is. as said before, it all depends on the situation. in your example with the homeless person, then yeah it would be right, in my point of view at least. but the way i see it, making ethical "rules" and punishing other people for not following them (as long as their actions aren't harming you) is just like what the government does. better to just avoid the whole quagmire or sorting through what's right and wrong in a million different scenarios and just let people do what they want in an anarchist environment where nobody supresses anyone else, and the smartest and most skilled at whatever, thrive and survive. i see any form of control, including ethics, as detrimental to freedom. sure, it does some good. but the potential problems of a controlling system like that outweigh it.

I think Buenaventura Durruti is a pretty cool guy. eh kills fascists and doesnt afraid of ruins.
The quickest way to kill a revolution is to wait for it.
11-19-2006 07:54 AM
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first of all, what do you mean by "anarchy government"? that really doesn't make sense.

second, i think i've said this before, but the smart would survive because they're best at it. the strong would be outmatched (thanks to our good friend firearms) and there wouldn't be any rich and powerful. yes, there would be violence at first. but i consider that an acceptable risk.

I think Buenaventura Durruti is a pretty cool guy. eh kills fascists and doesnt afraid of ruins.
The quickest way to kill a revolution is to wait for it.
11-19-2006 09:19 AM
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Quote:a anarchy government has never been in power anywhere
That's false. Check out the Spanish Revolution. Pretty much all towns were either anarchist or Marxist.

Quote:i see any form of control, including ethics, as detrimental to freedom
Without ethics there would be no freedom.
11-19-2006 09:37 AM
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Why does ethics have to be a controlling system? If I decide I want to be honest, those are my ethics and I can abide by them if I decide to. So personally I think honesty is a good thing, but I'm not telling you that you're bad if you disagree... am I? I mean, lying isn't illegal, so nobody's really going to try and force you to be honest (not based on the law anyway). But then that's people's ethics, and you don't have to listen to them if you disagree. I like to be in control of myself. I wouldn't like to be in control of anyone else though. Capitalism and politicians seem to thrive on lying, so there's no doubt it's useful... But it's my personal choice not to use those methods, because I don't like them.

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11-19-2006 10:06 AM
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Rebelnerd Offline
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having your own ethics systme is fine. but when a society develps a universal one, and then tells everybody to abide by it, thats just one small step towards dictatorship. what happens when it becomes unethical to criticize the government? or for gays to marry? or a million other stupid rules that they would now have the power to make? i'd rather just avoid that whole mess, and just let people do whatever the hell they want and only hurt them if they were harming me, or someone i cared about.

I think Buenaventura Durruti is a pretty cool guy. eh kills fascists and doesnt afraid of ruins.
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11-19-2006 02:39 PM
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I don't like thinking of some divine moral law; I don't see any reason to believe in one. I lie when lying is beneficial, and I don't when it is not. The main times I lie are when I'm playing a joke on someone and when I'm trying to avoid boring or annoying conversation.

Here are reasons not to lie:
  • Lying makes me try to hide that I lied, which can be stressful.
  • People may trust me less if they find out that I lied to them.[/list:u]

    So this is how I generally lie to people or act "dishonest":
    • I tell my parents that I was doing homework so I don't have to explain what the math team does.
    • I get extra change, and I don't have time to tell the cashier that she messed-up, so I don't say anything.[/list:u]

      That said, I still have some sort of fear of making direct lie for non-humor reasons. For example, I could say that I didn't get drunk last night, and this could mean that I got drunk early this morning before gonig to sleep. (Just so you know, I don't drink.) Instead of lying directly, I try to be unclear so that I can say that I didn't actually lie. I think this is mostly a habit that I would like to break.
11-19-2006 03:43 PM
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why? it can be damn useful sometimes, i've gotten out of trouble a lot by being able to lie. its not good or bad, its just a tool. it all depends on why its used.

I think Buenaventura Durruti is a pretty cool guy. eh kills fascists and doesnt afraid of ruins.
The quickest way to kill a revolution is to wait for it.
11-20-2006 01:45 AM
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The Subject Matter

What started the conversation, however, was how the OP was criticized for NOT lying.

I mean, ethics are, for the sake of simplicity, a form of rules that one uses to govern oneself. It may, in fact, imply that lying is MANDATORY, and that to not do so is an act of...cowardice, let's say. While you can impose one set of ethics, it's also possible to be imposed upon.

Also, one of the hidden benefits of honesty is that you do not fall into the trap of believing your own lies. It's simple if you're just taking mis-counted change. It's complicated if you've created, say, a book of propaganda.

In fact, some people are pathological liars, lying for no reason other than the compulsion to lie.

Things to consider when questioning the how and why of lying.

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10-17-2007 04:46 PM
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"Me? I'm dishonest. And a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Honestly, it's the honest ones you want to watch out for, because you can never predict when they're going to do something incredibly... stupid." – Captain Jack Sparrow

couldn't resist.. and i think that taht statremnt is true btw.

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10-18-2007 07:43 AM
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Lying can be good or bad depending on the situation. I remember lying has saved me so many times and gotten me so many things but I don't think I will lie if lives were on the line.

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10-18-2007 08:02 AM
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darthmat Wrote:"Me? I'm dishonest. And a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Honestly, it's the honest ones you want to watch out for, because you can never predict when they're going to do something incredibly... stupid." – Captain Jack Sparrow

couldn't resist.. and i think that taht statremnt is true btw.

haha nice i like that am adding it to my sig

but any way i dont really set my values or etics for my self but if i do i hold them very strongly and its usally nothing stupid like dont lie or do good deeds every day. on the lies thing if i tell a lie its usally to cover mine or a friends ass i dont do white lies often and if i do its usally stuff that will only hurt me and not any one else
10-18-2007 08:17 AM
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I take everything and anything I can from the state; thirteen wasted years of my life are measured in far more than money.
10-18-2007 08:47 AM
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Halla Wrote:I take everything and anything I can from the state; thirteen wasted years of my life are measured in far more than money.

True that sister.

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Honesty is the best policy! An honest man you can trust to keep his word and do what's right, dishonesty is like a disease, first it's white lies then soon enough you're lying big. That's human nature, snowball effect my friends, snowball effect.

Seriously, lying isn't worth my life. Of course I've never been in that situation before...

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10-18-2007 11:44 AM
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i lie when it doesn't hurt anyone and benefits me. i also lie when i feel i need to so i don't get into trouble i don't deserve. an example would be when my mom asks if i've done my homework. if i say no (the truth) she gets bitchy at me, but if i lie then i avoid that and i don't feel guilty because i don't deserve it.

a dollar lost won't hurt anyone, but i wouldn't usually take it unless the person could afford to lose it. it usually isn't worth the time.
10-18-2007 01:43 PM
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Lol, I lie like that about homework all the time.

I'm not perfect, I can tell you that...

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10-19-2007 10:38 AM
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RE: Honesty

It's said that some people are too honest.

I consider myself an honest person. I'm generally bad at making lies, so I avoid lying. Not only that, but lying where it is not needed and might be harmful often leaves a sick feeling in my stomach as well. It makes me feel really bad. I'm often open about discussing my thoughts, unless they're extremely personal and feel it's better for me to think about it.

Sometimes I say things that are rather inappropriate to the situation. Sometimes I feel that I need to state what I say. I feel to simply just agree with what's going on is slightly mind-oppressing and bad for discussion. That's just the way I am.

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