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To everyone who joined these forums at some point, and got discouraged by the negativity and left after a while (or even got literally scared off): I'm sorry.

I wasn't good enough at encouraging people to be kinder, and removing people who refuse to be kind. Encouraging people is hard, and removing people creates conflict, and I hate conflict... so that's why I wasn't better at it.

I was a very, very sensitive teen. The atmosphere of this forum as it is now, if it had existed in 1996, would probably have upset me far more than it would have helped.

I can handle quite a lot of negativity and even abuse now, but that isn't the point. I want to help people. I want to help the people who need it the most, and I want to help people like the 1996 version of me.

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Thank you to the few people who have tried to understand my point of view so far. I really, really appreciate you guys. You are beautiful people.

Everyone else: If after everything I've said so far, you still don't understand my motivations, I think it's unlikely that you will. We're just too different. Maybe someday in the future it might make sense, but until then, there's no point in arguing about it. I don't have the time or the energy for arguing anymore. I will focus my time and energy on people who support me, and those who need help.

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Want vs Need
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void Offline
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Post: #31
 

Kirby Wrote:But do we need oxygen?

i just spotted that the 'we' is in bold.. thought my eyes
were playing tricks on me. have massive migrane.

I .. Wtf .. don't understand. Plz elaborate.

pLay the game...
07-31-2007 01:12 AM
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SoulRiser Offline
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Post: #32
 

Kirby Wrote:Do we need oxygen to live? Of course. But do we need oxygen? That is a moral matter and not governed solely by cause and effect.

Who's the bold 'we'? I'm confused Confused

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07-31-2007 02:22 AM
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Bob Dole Offline
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Post: #33
 

He's saying that we have to have oxygen to live but that we really don't need oxygen. We would die without it, of course, but we do not really need it.

K
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07-31-2007 02:54 AM
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SoulRiser Offline
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Post: #34
 

If we need it to live, how then do we not need it?

Still Confused

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07-31-2007 03:02 AM
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Suicidal-kun Offline
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Post: #35
 

SoulRiser Wrote:If we need it to live, how then do we not need it?

Still Confused
I'm with you, if life's the most important thing and you need it to live, then how do you not need it?
07-31-2007 03:54 AM
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void Offline
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Post: #36
 

Kirby, is that what you mean by 'moral matter' .. whether we live or die?

kinda grim outlook on life.. but sometimes i feel the same...

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07-31-2007 04:56 AM
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Darthmat Offline
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Post: #37
 

me confused. Cuckoo

I highly suggest Mobb Deep's albums The Infamous and Hell on Earth, if you have not listened to it yet.
07-31-2007 06:35 AM
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Suicidal-kun Offline
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Post: #38
 

darthmat Wrote:me confused. Cuckoo
That's a shocker. Laugh
07-31-2007 06:39 AM
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Darthmat Offline
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Post: #39
 

Rocket

I highly suggest Mobb Deep's albums The Infamous and Hell on Earth, if you have not listened to it yet.
07-31-2007 06:40 AM
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Suicidal-kun Offline
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You missed, you can't aim for shit. Laugh
07-31-2007 06:45 AM
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Darthmat Offline
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Post: #41
 

damnit!

I highly suggest Mobb Deep's albums The Infamous and Hell on Earth, if you have not listened to it yet.
07-31-2007 06:47 AM
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Suicidal-kun Offline
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Post: #42
 

darthmat Wrote:damnit!
Laugh Laugh Laugh
07-31-2007 06:49 AM
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Post: #43
 

You have to understand that there is a vast difference between "effect X needs cause Y" and "thing X needs Y".

For an organism to survive on Earth it needs oxygen. Without oxygen, cellular respiration would not occur and the organism would die. Thus "to live we need oxygen."

Some of you are having problems with the second statement so I will try to explain. "We need oxygen to live but do we need oxygen?" is asking if we as sapient and sentient beings have to have oxygen. It isn't asking anything about our life; it is asking whether we should have it or if we shouldn't. Thus is it a moral question.

Suicidal-kun Wrote:I'm with you, if life's the most important thing and you need it to live, then how do you not need it?
I would change this question to:

Q: "Do we need oxygen?"
A: "Life is the most important thing and should be kept going. We need oxygen to live thus we need oxygen."
07-31-2007 10:22 AM
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SoulRiser Offline
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Post: #44
 

So oxygen is only necessary if life is necessary. If staying alive isn't necessary, then all the 'needs' become 'wants'.

I want to live... so I want oxygen (and food and water, etc).

... And I guess a brain-dead person in a hospital doesn't really need anything (though a new brain might help) Razz

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07-31-2007 09:23 PM
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Darthmat Offline
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Post: #45
 

SoulRiser Wrote:So oxygen is only necessary if life is necessary. If staying alive isn't necessary, then all the 'needs' become 'wants'.

I want to live... so I want oxygen (and food and water, etc).

When we started this conversation i assumed we were under the presumtion of life is a need...............that changes alot.

I highly suggest Mobb Deep's albums The Infamous and Hell on Earth, if you have not listened to it yet.
07-31-2007 09:31 PM
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void Offline
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Post: #46
 

For what reason other than "to live" could we possibly ask "Do we need oxygen?"

i would say it's not so much a moral question as a pointless one...

pLay the game...
08-01-2007 02:26 AM
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Post: #47
 

Laugh

you know... for balloons... and stuff. oh wait, that's helium. nevermind.

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08-01-2007 02:49 AM
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Post: #48
 

Laugh

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08-01-2007 04:28 AM
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Laugh Laugh Laugh
08-01-2007 04:37 AM
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Laugh
08-01-2007 06:27 AM
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Post: #51
 

Helium or C02
and for another use of helium we can make those funny voices Biggrin

:-P
That is all.
08-01-2007 06:32 AM
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Demonic Pyro Wrote:Helium or C02
and for another use of helium we can make those funny voices Biggrin
Always wanted to try that. Laugh
08-01-2007 06:33 AM
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Post: #53
 

SoulRiser Wrote:So oxygen is only necessary if life is necessary. If staying alive isn't necessary, then all the 'needs' become 'wants'.
Not exactly. My first statements were actually separate. The first was just my definition of a need (something you really want).

void Wrote:For what reason other than "to live" could we possibly ask "Do we need oxygen?"

i would say it's not so much a moral question as a pointless one...
It is a completely moral question. The question "Do we need oxygen?" is asking for a value not a cause-effect relationship. It is asking for an answer that is justified by good or bad. Really it is asking "Is life good?".
08-01-2007 07:54 AM
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Darthmat Offline
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Post: #54
 

Kirby Wrote:Not exactly. My first statements were actually separate. The first was just my definition of a need (something you really want).

No. A need is something you absolutley must acquire and can't live without.

I highly suggest Mobb Deep's albums The Infamous and Hell on Earth, if you have not listened to it yet.
08-01-2007 08:58 AM
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Neither of us are right. It is a definition and not an objective truth.
08-01-2007 09:04 AM
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Darthmat Offline
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Post: #56
 

So you mean different people make up thier own ideas....what kind of wackjob are you? Laugh

I highly suggest Mobb Deep's albums The Infamous and Hell on Earth, if you have not listened to it yet.
08-01-2007 09:10 AM
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I'm saying that the word "need" means nothing to a person who knows only Japanese. Certain sequences of sound do not have a meaning outside of our interpretation. The interpretation is dependent on our culture, upbringing, and personality. For example, the French word "diner" in Quebec means lunch but in France it means supper. Other differences are more subtle such as the phrase "concentration camps". For most people that brings to mind atrocities like Dachau and Bergen-Belsen. Before WWII the phrase was commonly used for regular prisoner-of-war camps. The definitions are still the same but the subjective feeling differs.
08-01-2007 10:49 AM
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Kirby Wrote:I'm saying that the word "need" means nothing to a person who knows only Japanese. Certain sequences of sound do not have a meaning outside of our interpretation. The interpretation is dependent on our culture, upbringing, and personality. For example, the French word "diner" in Quebec means lunch but in France it means supper. Other differences are more subtle such as the phrase "concentration camps". For most people that brings to mind atrocities like Dachau and Bergen-Belsen. Before WWII the phrase was commonly used for regular prisoner-of-war camps. The definitions are still the same but the subjective feeling differs.
I get what you're saying.
08-01-2007 10:54 AM
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Darthmat Offline
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Post: #59
 

but i am talking about how need realtes to us. or need translated into japanese for someone living there.

I highly suggest Mobb Deep's albums The Infamous and Hell on Earth, if you have not listened to it yet.
08-01-2007 11:31 AM
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What I am talking about is that the definition of need is not something that exists except outside of our minds and all of us have slightly different definitions.
08-01-2007 11:32 AM
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