My brothers argument for school

[payback123]

My brother and I were having a conversation about school. His argument is that everyone should be forced to do certain subjects, even one's they don't like because

A.You may like it in the future which in turn will give you more qualification
B.If no one was "forced" into taking complexed subjects, they would all take gym or art or something easy

He always says "Yes I'm smarter than you because I got X% in math, and you failed" I've got no real argument against this besides "School doesn't determine how smart you are" but he's one of those stubborn pricks who refuses to listen, and thinks he's fucking Albert Einstein because he graduated from high school (Except for the fact that he smokes)

2. He always says "Why are you always a prick to your teachers? why do you always refuse to do what they tell you? just suck it up and get it over with" = Perfect example of someone who has been brainwashed by school

Any arguments against these would be appreciated.

[Evasion]

"Just think of the sheer idiocy of compulsory education. We threaten these children with imprisonment if they do not appear in class. Once in class, they spend their time either sleeping or completing tasks that are completely irrelevant to them. By giving them no option in their schooling, what have we taught them? The first lesson they learn is to detest learning, to hold unbridled sympathy for education. Take any man, put him in chains, and force him to recite poetry, or force him to play an instrument, or force him to farm the land -- and once he becomes a free man, do you think he will want to engage in that activity that was forced upon him? The scars on a slaves hands from working the fields, the memories of abuse of a house servant; given the right to do as they wish in the world, is it likely to think that they will return to that work which they were forced to do? And then consider schools. We force children to sit and overfeed them erroneous facts, faulty logic, damaged reasoning, concealed under the guise of "schooling." Once the mental faculties of these children are damaged, their heart grows an animosity towards learning, towards books, towards facts and knowledge. It is the greatest folly to make children hate learning, and the greatest danger to a real, living Democracy in any nation."

http://punkerslut.com/articles/bearebel.html

[Freak]

Quote:2. He always says "Why are you always a prick to your teachers? why do you always refuse to do what they tell you? just suck it up and get it over with" = Perfect example of someone who has been brainwashed by school

I semi-agree with this. Teachers= livings beings and deserve a certain amount of respect. You shouldn't dislike them and be an asshole simply because they're teachers. 98% of them would bend over backwards if you tried in school.
But I disagree with sucking up, and especially sucking up to "get things over with"

[Will]

Just stop arguing and admit that he's smart and you're stupid. That would make me feel awkward. And then you can do some smart thing when you feel like it in a few years and make fun of him.

[roberterher]

Freak-of-nature14 Wrote:

Quote:2. He always says "Why are you always a prick to your teachers? why do you always refuse to do what they tell you? just suck it up and get it over with" = Perfect example of someone who has been brainwashed by school

I semi-agree with this. Teachers= livings beings and deserve a certain amount of respect. You shouldn't dislike them and be an asshole simply because they're teachers. 98% of them would bend over backwards if you tried in school.
But I disagree with sucking up, and especially sucking up to "get things over with"

So, students are not living beings?

[payback123]

Evasion Wrote:"Just think of the sheer idiocy of compulsory education. We threaten these children with imprisonment if they do not appear in class. Once in class, they spend their time either sleeping or completing tasks that are completely irrelevant to them. By giving them no option in their schooling, what have we taught them? The first lesson they learn is to detest learning, to hold unbridled sympathy for education. Take any man, put him in chains, and force him to recite poetry, or force him to play an instrument, or force him to farm the land -- and once he becomes a free man, do you think he will want to engage in that activity that was forced upon him? The scars on a slaves hands from working the fields, the memories of abuse of a house servant; given the right to do as they wish in the world, is it likely to think that they will return to that work which they were forced to do? And then consider schools. We force children to sit and overfeed them erroneous facts, faulty logic, damaged reasoning, concealed under the guise of "schooling." Once the mental faculties of these children are damaged, their heart grows an animosity towards learning, towards books, towards facts and knowledge. It is the greatest folly to make children hate learning, and the greatest danger to a real, living Democracy in any nation."

http://punkerslut.com/articles/bearebel.html

True enough, thanks

[SoulRiser]

Quote:A.You may like it in the future which in turn will give you more qualification

Yeah, sure, if by some miracle you actually remember any of it by then.

Quote:B.If no one was "forced" into taking complexed subjects, they would all take gym or art or something easy

No they wouldn't. Some people prefer math and stuff over art/gym. Gym isn't easy for everyone either. For some people it's a living hell.

Quote:He always says "Yes I'm smarter than you because I got X% in math, and you failed"

If he has to resort to saying stupid things like that, it probably means he is actually insecure about his intelligence and saying that makes him feel better.

Quote:I semi-agree with this. Teachers= livings beings and deserve a certain amount of respect. You shouldn't dislike them and be an asshole simply because they're teachers. 98% of them would bend over backwards if you tried in school.

Just like they shouldn't dislike and be an asshole to you just because you're a student. 98% of students would try in school if they actually wanted to go there in the first place.

[Aya]

He sounds like my brother in law. Just tell him that its you're life and you're going to make your own decisions whether he agrees with them or not. Granted if he is like my brother in law that won't shut him up. He'll probably get pissed off and do something childish and immature. But it will close the arguement and make him look like a spoiled brat.

[Freak]

roberterher Wrote:So, students are not living beings?

I didn't say anything about students, did I dumbass? OK then. Lots of idiot's on here stereotype teachers as if they are out to get you, and that most are condescending assholes. Most teachers I've encountered respect you as long as you respect them. I've also noticed that some students are complete dicks to teachers just because they're teachers. I'll admit some teachers are condescending, but I mean.... they went through six years of college to teach. So oviously they'd have to REALLY, REALLY want to do their job. So, logically thinking, they couldn't be that bad.

[SoulRiser]

Quote:I'll admit some teachers are condescending, but I mean.... they went through six years of college to teach. So oviously they'd have to REALLY, REALLY want to do their job. So, logically thinking, they couldn't be that bad.

Just because someone went through that much to do their job still doesn't automatically mean that's what they wanted to do. Or even if it was, maybe they changed their minds about it later.

Generalizing is bad, and that goes both ways.

[roberterher]

Well it sounded like you said teachers deserve respect because they're teachers, cause students weren't mentioned at all.
"teachers deserves respect" No they don't, if they treat everyone like crap.

[OmegaWolf747]

Your brother is a product of the system. There's just no arguing with people like that. I think a lot of the people who defend public school actually hated it as kids, but seek to justify it in their minds by forcing it on the next generation. After all, why should you have things easier than they did? It's that type of twisted logic they use.

As for learning, I did despise it in high school. I found that after I was out of school and had the freedom to just watch stuff on PBS and look stuff up online, I learned and retained things much faster and better than I ever had in school. I have educated myself to nearly expert level on a few subjects. Learning needs to be a self-guided, individual effort, not group work done in class rooms.

[Will]

OmegaWolf747 Wrote:Your brother is a product of the system. There's just no arguing with people like that.

Arguing doesn't work in general. When we use the words "argue" or "debate," we generally mean that the people arguing have such firm beliefs that they will not let themselves change their minds. One feels like he loses the argument if he gives in to anything the other says. That's why there's no sense in arguing with anybody, which certainly includes "products of the system." What's so special about "products of the system" though? A lot of them found this site.

OmegaWolf747 Wrote:I think a lot of the people who defend public school actually hated it as kids, but seek to justify it in their minds by forcing it on the next generation. After all, why should you have things easier than they did? It's that type of twisted logic they use.

I think it's even simpler. They knew when they were in school that they were supposed to work hard, follow the stupid rules, bullshit a lot, &c. and wanted themselves to act like they knew they were supposed to. They keep trying to act right when they get older.

[payback123]

Thanks people, all I needed

[mudkip liek]

roberterher Wrote:Well it sounded like you said teachers deserve respect because they're teachers, cause students weren't mentioned at all.
"teachers deserves respect" No they don't, if they treat everyone like crap.

I agree, they need a life. Seriously, we have to be in fucking school for SEVEN fucking hours (well I do). As if THAT isn't enough, those dumbass teachers (and that goes for ALL my teachers) give us homework. I have a life you know? I have stuff to do, I don't have time to do stupid work that teaches me NOTHING! That's why NO teacher deserves respect. And homework isn't even the only reason. There's hundreds more.

[SoulRiser]

Quote:That's why NO teacher deserves respect. And homework isn't even the only reason.

Maybe none of yours do, but they're not all that bad. There may even be *gasp* good teachers in the world. I've known a few.

[Eidolon]

My 9th grade english teacher, Brutha E, was one fly cat.

[mudkip liek]

SoulRiser Wrote:

Quote:That's why NO teacher deserves respect. And homework isn't even the only reason.

Maybe none of yours do, but they're not all that bad. There may even be *gasp* good teachers in the world. I've known a few.

Actually, I do have 2 of what would be considered "cool" teachers. They don't give as much homework and they let you go to the bathroom anytime and they let you sleep. But there are still things that make them non-respectable.

[Evasion]

Only my wood shop teacher, but he's a shop teacher. Enough said.

[arthasmenethil]

Quote:There may even be *gasp* good teachers in the world. I've known a few.

Yes, and one of them is my chemistry teacher. He actually tries to help people and barely gives any work. He is also a genius(not thinks he is. he really is) He knows the answer to ANY question you can ask(within reason)

[Rebelnerd]

my shop teacher's also my driver ed teacher. say what you want about the guy, but he knows how to drive well and i've got no problem as long as he keeps me from dying on the highway. although, he's actually pretty cool.