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An argument on why anarchy doesn't work
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akdonn Offline
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Ha, Ha, Ha. Been there, done that. Hey, in the 1960's we thought we were going to change the world to our own liking, too! I bought a copy of "The Anarchists Cookbook" and read all kinds of books by guys like Abbe Hoffman (Steal this Book!) and Jerry Ruben (Do It!) and Baba Ram Das (Be Here Now). Oh, boy, we knew it was all going to happen and we were all going to be dancing on the graves of "The Man."

Sometime later reality struck. I think it helped when I saw the movie Dr. Zhivago, about the Russian Revolution:
Quote:(From Wikipedia) Doctor Zhivago (Russian: Доктор Живаго) is a 20th century novel by Boris Pasternak. The novel is named after its protagonist, Yuri Zhivago, a medical doctor and poet. The word zhivago shares a root with the Russian word for life (жизнь), one of the major themes of the novel. It tells the story of a man torn between two women, set primarily against the backdrop of the Russian Revolution of 1917. More deeply, the novel discusses the plight of a man as his life is slowly destroyed by the violence of the revolution. The book was made into a film by David Lean in 1965 and has also been adapted numerous times for television, most recently as a miniseries for Russian TV in 2005.

Hey, here's a picture of me scanned from the Anchorage Daily News, leading a "Moratorium March" against the Vietnam War in the early 1970's. I wasn't hiding behind any computer name, or anonymous website, either. I was a ring leader!

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Thanks for the memories--and the freedoms we all enjoy--including the freedom to bitch about school!


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12-16-2007 04:48 AM
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youvebeenthunderstruck Offline
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akdonn:

"1) This is NOT a thread to decide whether anarchy is good or bad. If you want to do that, start another topic if you feel so inclined."

Thus, I'm going to split this into another topic soon.

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12-16-2007 07:14 AM
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akdonn Offline
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youvebeenthunderstruck:

What a fool I am! I hadn't thought that it doesn't matter (to you) if anarchy is a stupid idea. We'll know that it was a bad idea AFTER the damage is done. Until then let's just assume its a good idea and don't anybody challenge that assumption.

My point was that it is easy to talk the talk but talk is cheap.

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12-16-2007 10:44 PM
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youvebeenthunderstruck Offline
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Well, if you think it's bad, feel free to argue it. There are many logical points to anarchaism.

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12-17-2007 06:53 AM
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thewake Offline
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I feel a need to jump in:
There are logical points to anarchism and government. Both have been proven to work. It depends on what you value most, liberty or security.
Government is going to slowly(if not quickly) usurp you rights and you may even live in fear of your safety too if it gets too powerful, but ideally: Government will provide security. Anarchy is going to, at the beginning, be overly dangerous and will probably never be as safe as government could be, and we may just reset the clock on government and have kings and queens ruling us all tyrannical like. Ideally though: Anarchy will harbor liberty.

Which do you value more?

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12-22-2007 04:51 AM
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Albatross Offline
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akdonn Wrote:talk is cheap.

So are bullets, if enough of the population was interested in anarchy they'd fight to keep it.
12-22-2007 05:44 AM
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Anarchy as solely the lack of government would be completely worthless. If there is no change in society other than the destruction of government, there would be even bigger problems than what we have right now. Anarchism as a set of ideas and practices deals with more fundamental changes of society.
12-23-2007 05:43 AM
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TheDelinquent Offline
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Re: An argument on why anarchy doesn't work

I can't help feeling that anarchism isn't something to be "done". It is something aimed at undoing through the pursuit of wisdom what is already being done.

http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/why_become.html
http://www.seesharppress.com/anarchismwhatis.html
04-27-2008 12:56 AM
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Alucard483 Offline
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Post: #9
Re: An argument on why anarchy doesn't work

Thank you akdonn, but I have already pwned anarchy on all levels on many times prior to this. However I am glad to see we are on the same page. It works on paper but not in practice. Even if the government was to be overthown by anarchists (HAHA fat chance) and other countries refrained from a golden opertunity to invade, and the last of the loyal supporter's of the current government are scilenced, a new government would rise again. Look in the history books, ALL anarchist countrys remained that way for roughly 10-20 yrs then fell to a new form of government created from within. The point is that its a MAJORLY flawed idea, just like communism, somone will ALWAYS rise to be more powerful than the rest and institute SOME kind of overnment.

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04-28-2008 02:34 AM
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.xstrike-anywherex. Offline
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Post: #10
Re: An argument on why anarchy doesn't work

There is no "anarchism works" or "anarchism doesn't work". There is no "government works" or "government doesn't work". There will always be strife and conflict in the world no matter what.

You can't say something "works" because nothing does. You just have to argue why your point is more ideal than the other person's.

Obviously anarchism isn't without its problems. Anarchists simply believe the benefits outweigh the problems.

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04-28-2008 07:13 AM
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cryptevah72 Offline
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Re: An argument on why anarchy doesn't work

TheDelinquent Wrote:I can't help feeling that anarchism isn't something to be "done". It is something aimed at undoing through the pursuit of wisdom what is already being done.

hmm, the noob has got some good insights!

btw, hi! dont think we've met yet Welcome


so, as i've said multiple times before, (really, how many threads about anarchy are there on this site?!) anarchy is a wonderful ideal, but simply cannot work unless some odd phenomenon occurred, and everyone decided to want it, and everyone suddenly got really good morals. i guess you could say that if we got rid of everyone who opposed it, we might be able to achieve an anarchy that would work, but then again, im not a big fan of mass genocide and pointless war. of course anarchy would have to be world wide, since one country being anarchists, and others not, or even all but one counrty being anarchists, would once again plunge us into another pointless war with them. you see the world is already a perverse balance of keeping the leaders and "big people" in the world happy and content. thats with all of the established governments that the world has. compared to anarchy, that would be like comparing balancing on one foot amongst billions of pillows around you, to balancing on one toe, without any training in ballet, atop the empire state building, surrounded by lava (ok maybe i got a bit carried away there...) but the fact is that, since its quite painfully obvious that humans DONT all have good morals, and DONT get along with each other, usually for extremely stupid reasons, i'd have to say that lizards have a better chance at achieving true anarchy. actually if you think of it, many animal species have the equivalent of anarchy, and they survive quite well (of course its not working out too well because, big surprise! we kill them and make them endangered, but without us being idiots, they would all survive pretty well). even the animals that have sorts of governments, still get along, and it seems to work for them. i wonder why we, the supposedly highest life forms on this planet, cant get it right?

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04-28-2008 11:40 AM
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SoulRiser Offline
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Re: An argument on why anarchy doesn't work

We already get it right on a small scale... friendship. There aren't normally any leaders involved in friendship, and if there are, it's usually because everyone in the group is fine with it that way. If someone wants to rule over a bunch of his friends, they can just tell him to get lost if they don't like it.

Anarchy is the most morally right way of doing things, but because very few people have the right morals, it won't work very well on a larger scale until they do. Which doesn't seem likely to happen anytime soon.

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04-28-2008 12:58 PM
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cryptevah72 Offline
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Re: An argument on why anarchy doesn't work

true, friendship rocks! but not everyone is friends...

i am me myself and i
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04-28-2008 01:57 PM
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happy fool called Nigel Offline
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Re: An argument on why anarchy doesn't work

Anarchy doesn't need to 'work', anarchy is just what the world naturally does when humans don't intervene and aren't brainwashed by invisible laws. Anarchy is when the natural way of things is the replacement for unnatural and flawed governments set up to control people for profit or because you think thats the way things are 'supposed to be'.

People think that 'democracy' is the balance between tyranny and anarchy. Anarchy is already balanced and I believe any sort of government is unbalanced.

Anarchy: My life is up to me, your life is up to me

Government: Your life is up to me, my life is up to you.

They in the sea being burnt, they in the burnt ship drowned.


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04-28-2008 02:40 PM
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cryptevah72 Offline
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Re: An argument on why anarchy doesn't work

happy fool called Nigel Wrote:anarchy is just what the world naturally does when humans don't intervene and aren't brainwashed by invisible laws. Anarchy is when the natural way of things is the replacement for unnatural and flawed governments set up to control people for profit or because you think thats the way things are 'supposed to be'.

pretty true, though the fact that anarchy is when ppl dont interveine and do bad things is the reason why there isnt, and probably wont be anarchy, because ppl will always do bad things, always try to control things, not everyone, not even most ppl, even if just one person did, then there cant be anarchy.

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04-28-2008 02:52 PM
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happy fool called Nigel Offline
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Re: An argument on why anarchy doesn't work

If people don't let these petty human interferences effect them, then there is anarchy.

They in the sea being burnt, they in the burnt ship drowned.


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04-28-2008 03:09 PM
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cryptevah72 Offline
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Re: An argument on why anarchy doesn't work

but what if the interferences aren't petty?

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04-28-2008 03:10 PM
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Re:

akdonn Wrote:Ha, Ha, Ha. Been there, done that. Hey, in the 1960's we thought we were going to change the world to our own liking, too! I bought a copy of "The Anarchists Cookbook" and read all kinds of books by guys like Abbe Hoffman (Steal this Book!) and Jerry Ruben (Do It!) and Baba Ram Das (Be Here Now). Oh, boy, we knew it was all going to happen and we were all going to be dancing on the graves of "The Man."

Whatever... like hundreds of years ago when that peasant dude said "You know guys one day theres going to be no kings, the people will elect their leaders." i guarantee you some old dude laughed at him and said "no kings... LOL ... like omg when i was your age i was all like yea man down with feudalism and shit but dude its not going to happen!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR7dNntU5oI

Thanks Akplom because if it didn't happen in your time then i suppose its never going to happen.
04-28-2008 07:10 PM
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Ahab Offline
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Re: An argument on why anarchy doesn't work

Not really man. Hippies were really just part of a social group, and used stuff like protesting to gather up and socialize. They never actually cared about the issues except for making sure they could buy a dimebag without a hassle. It's no different from metalheads, "gangstas", goths, western homosexual culture, etc. they're all scenes at the end of the day, and the supposed non-isolation isolation which comes with it makes it all the more better.

So I wouldn't say dismissing anarchy is nessecarily the aim, but finding a rational anarchy which people could reason with. I can only see this happening with anarcho-capitalism, idealistic but not nearly as idealistic as the bullshit idea that people will all voluntarily get together in the name of each other for the "common good."

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04-29-2008 07:56 AM
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akdonn Offline
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Re: An argument on why anarchy doesn't work

PIMP:
It is a long stretch to consider the difference between government by dictator and government by democracy being analogous to democracy versus no government at all! I'd say feudal dictators were closer to no government than to democracy, and when you have anarchy you are heading the wrong way--toward dictatorship--because nature abhors a vacuum and in the absence of responsible assertive government you will get "strong-man" rule.

Praising anarchy is welcoming chaos, nothing more. It isn't even idealistic, it's stupid and naive.
04-29-2008 10:42 AM
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Alucard483 Offline
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Re: An argument on why anarchy doesn't work

akdonn Wrote:Praising anarchy is welcoming chaos, nothing more. It isn't even idealistic, it's stupid and naive.
QFTW!

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Re: An argument on why anarchy doesn't work

I'm new here so i really don't know if this forum is still active or not. I saw this post and i thought it was interesting. Anarchy does not work that is exactly right. With Anarchy there is no order and though there aren't any decent men out there who can be agreed by everyone to rule,there needs to be order in the society someone who knows what the people want. The People's man. I'm sick of people saying their anarchists when all they know is "no rules" its much deeper than that. I however am studying Socialism. Here we have the workers who rule the nation with shorter working hours and yet still the same pay or more even. And also we do not work for ourselves but the benefit for all humanity. Under the capitalist agenda we work for a minority which takes two hours of our work wages into their own pockets. With Communism there is no government but the community still works for itself. Being human as we are, we are greedy at least most if not all. There still good people out there. Like many of us at school who work to acheive a great purpose and yet are shamed by those who oppress us. People who work very hard and are respectful and decent yet again they are shamed by them. Tell me you have not felt this way tell me all. We will crush the opposition let us break our chains and let those who have oppressed all who have done decent work and yet people shame us. I don't mean to sound dramatic but i tend to get that way. Feel free to criticize my statements for criticism in a sense is good
04-29-2008 01:47 PM
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happy fool called Nigel Offline
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Re: An argument on why anarchy doesn't work

Alucard483 Wrote:
akdonn Wrote:Praising anarchy is welcoming chaos, nothing more. It isn't even idealistic, it's stupid and naive.
QFTW!


Anarchy is none of those things. Go into a jungle. yes there is an order of things, but it's natural. That's anarchy.

They in the sea being burnt, they in the burnt ship drowned.


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04-29-2008 01:50 PM
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TheDelinquent Offline
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Re: An argument on why anarchy doesn't work

While I do appreciate your defense of anarchism from the ANARCHY=CHAOS=VIOLENCE=BAD crowd, a jungle isn't really anarchism either. At all. Anarchism is when people get to have a say in what happens equivalent to the degree they are affected by the happening. It is a political theory, not an abstruse generalization or "jungle law".

http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/why_become.html
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04-30-2008 06:00 AM
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Alucard483 Offline
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Re: An argument on why anarchy doesn't work

happy fool called Nigel Wrote:
Alucard483 Wrote:
akdonn Wrote:Praising anarchy is welcoming chaos, nothing more. It isn't even idealistic, it's stupid and naive.
QFTW!


Anarchy is none of those things. Go into a jungle. yes there is an order of things, but it's natural. That's anarchy.

no, thats nature. Anarchy requires a society

Whilst some work diligently there are those who ask why. I am one of them
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04-30-2008 10:57 AM
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akdonn Offline
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Re: An argument on why anarchy doesn't work

Jurgis1906:

I couldn't have said it better myself!
04-30-2008 11:30 AM
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TheDelinquent Offline
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Re: An argument on why anarchy doesn't work

You do realize Marx himself said anarchy would be the eventual result of a communist society?
Anarchists and communists agree w/ on everything but the means.
Communists and other non-libertarian socialists claim we need a party or a leader. Anarchists simply disagree.

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04-30-2008 08:50 PM
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Re: An argument on why anarchy doesn't work

Sheeple need leaders. People who think for themselves don't (and won't really pay attention to them anyway even if they do "have" leaders).

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05-01-2008 05:10 AM
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akdonn Offline
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Re: An argument on why anarchy doesn't work

People who think for themselves often disagree on just about everything. Even the guys who formed the U.S. Constitution didn't agree but over time the differences have evolved.

Under our constitution we have a balance of power so that disagreement can be managed for the best interests of society over the petty interests of individuals. The system has worked for a couple of centuries now, and the ones who don't think it is working get to make choices about whether they are interested in being part of society or isolated in prison.

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05-02-2008 07:32 AM
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Post: #30
Re: An argument on why anarchy doesn't work

This is all very true, free thinkers are essential in creating nations however they are just ass essential in destroying it. To rebute souls answer no, a person does not need government however people do. People are irrational and immoral. Without government the immoral, irrational ones will ALWAYS come out on top, thus to keep order government is needed. Some times the government makes really stupid decisions in order to keep order and we all regret it. However these free thinkers can also cause trouble, lots more than the government can.

Whilst some work diligently there are those who ask why. I am one of them
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Soul#2: I already have a grip. Doc:and a porno mag and a tube of lube I'm sure"
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This has been a test of the emergency pointless argument system. Had this been a real pointless argument, someone would have been called a facist.
Ceiling Cat: For that you need to wear a fursuit, though.

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05-02-2008 09:51 AM
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