Abolish school? Actually, that's not the problem...

[amizon]

akdonn Wrote:I believe my postings are simply stating facts. If that is incorrect then it is a mistake. I am not defensive about this, and as a matter of fact I pretty much agree with most of what you say. Schools are a mammoth undertaking and everybody bitches about them, but I think they are generally serving society well because if they weren't the public would not continue to support them at the high levels they are supported.

Well if I knew you agreed that's something else entirely then! I was trying to figure out why you were being so stubborn about conceding a point and after the last post (which you've got to admit was a little tiny bit defensive sounding, even if you didn't mean it that way) I thought "Oh, ok. He's being irrationally stubborn because conceding a point would be a dent to his ego!" Not that I've ever quite understood ego, mind you, but it seemed logical enough. Turns out you AREN'T being irrational because you DO agree. Yay! (not being cynical, btw).

Also, I think as long as doing nothing equals support than the majority of society will seem to support it. People are too busy/lazy to change something unless it can't go on without being changed, or if a group of adults is willing to lead the charge so all the rest of the people just have to jump on the bandwagon. And you're going to have a hard time ever getting a substantial and passionate group of adults to lead the charge because the desire for change starts with the students who hate it passionately, which are a minority. Then only a minority of parents will even listen to their opinions, then only a minority of parents will have the time/energy/conviction to bring it up with legislators, and then few if any of those legislators will even consider putting their time/energy/conviction into the cause because it's just too hard (unless by some fluke you're the President, leader of the senate/house,etc. ) and their going against the flow of the status quo.. But that's just my cynical view of people, perhaps. Ahem rant done.

As for that joke.. I didn't get it. It could be because my brain is imploding on itself trying to reconcile with the fact that I have to get up and go to school tomorrow, but either way I missed something. My bad..

[akdonn]

Joke explanation: Do you know how boy scouts put out campfires when there are no girls around?

[amizon]

akdonn Wrote:Joke explanation: Do you know how boy scouts put out campfires when there are no girls around?

Ohh.. okay. I can be a little slow sometimes..

[SoulRiser]

Quote:Schools are a mammoth undertaking and everybody bitches about them, but I think they are generally serving society well because if they weren't the public would not continue to support them at the high levels they are supported.

Or maybe if they were generally serving society well, everybody wouldn't be bitching about them?

Most of "the public" are adults who don't have to go to school anymore, and don't consider it to be their problem if it isn't serving everyone well enough. They probably just figure that the majority who manage to survive and get a job is good enough, and if someone else has a problem with it, there must be something wrong with them because they're a minority. Or that's the way it looks, anyway, judging by how reluctant most people are to listen to anyone who doesn't like school.

Quote:I forgot. We have a generation of kids who want to "like" and be "liked." Seems like a shallow reason for denying yourself the opportunity to compete with others who may not be nearly as smart but know how to use the system for their own good.

Not everyone wants to play that competition game, you know. Actually, if there was just some easy way to find out about all the possible jobs in existence that are different from most of the normal stuff people keep hearing about, it might help already. When I was still in school, I didn't know there were people who did different things with their lives, I figured everyone had to fit in the 9-5 grind or starve to death. That's the sort of scare tactics schools (and other people) use, and it really leaves some people with a morbid outlook on life. Now there's an idea for something to add to SS...

[akdonn]

SoulRiser

I think we generally agree on these topics although I think we have different emphasis.

At the "school" where I work we also have an "employment agency" that has some pretty incredible programs. I say this as one who had to go out and find my own job when I was just out of high school (so I could pay for college).

We have programs where WE PAY THE FIRST 3 MONTHS SALARY so a worker can learn the job. Once they have put in three months the employer agrees to hire them permanently. These are mostly private enterprise jobs, not government jobs. The age cutoff is 23 or 24, I think.

[OmegaWolf747]

SoulRiser is technically correct. The problem really does lie with the parents. Schools get stricter with students nowadays because the parents wish it. Parents want their kids to be babysat all day. Consequently, students can no longer leave school for lunch and now face more restrictions such as dress codes. Schools are afraid of lawsuits from these "helicopter parents", so they take these draconian measure to appease them.

[Darthmat]

I think, this could be easier than totally abolishing the legalities of school, but in the end that must be done.

[Will]

youvebeenthunderstruck Wrote:SoulRiser said something which I think is very true, and I think we may have been looking at the situation incorrectly the entire time.

We say that school is bad because we don't have a choice in the matter, that it's law, etc. This is true, but there are alternate forms of "school" that you can legally, um, do. Homeschooling, unschooling, all that jazz.

The problem lies not in the fact that we're all uniformly forced to attend school, but that our parents can force us to go to school because they are the ones who can legally force us. So what we should be trying to do is in fact make it so that we can choose our own education free from parental, and not governmental, forcible persuasion.

Now, the argument that faces this is "shouldn't parents have the right to decide what their kids' education should be?" And I don't think they do. Children are not property of their parents.

I haven't read through this entire thread yet, but I have to say something now anyway.

If there were no legal distinction between children and adults and the government didn't interfere in the child-parent relationship anymore than it did in any other type of relationship, we wouldn't have to worry about the question of what rights parents have over their children.

If the police wouldn't force runaways to return to their parents and children were able to sign contracts, parents would have to be nicer to their children in order to prevent them from running away. Running away from one's parents would still be difficult, but it would be much easier.

Actually, children wouldn't even have to "run away." They could tell their parents, and the parents would still not be able to force the children to stay.

[thewake]

Man, parents are part of the problem, school is part of the problem.
What we need to do is strike at the root of the thing.

[akdonn]

Weswammy:

And "the root of the thing" is?????

Will:

Quote:If there were no legal distinction between children and adults and the government didn't interfere in the child-parent relationship anymore than it did in any other type of relationship, we wouldn't have to worry about the question of what rights parents have over their children.

If the police wouldn't force runaways to return to their parents and children were able to sign contracts, parents would have to be nicer to their children in order to prevent them from running away. Running away from one's parents would still be difficult, but it would be much easier.

Actually, children wouldn't even have to "run away." They could tell their parents, and the parents would still not be able to force the children to stay.

I don't understand how you come up with this stuff. How can there be "no legal distinction between children and adults"?

In every society there has ever been or ever will be, children will be subordinate to the parents who brought them into the world and support them until they are capable of living on their own. In our society adults vote, and elect other adults to make the laws that require kids to remain in school, and abide by curfews, and all the other stuff that is mandated by civilization. The Constitution of every state establishes how old you have to be to participate as a full member of society with the right to vote.

Our laws require runaways to return to their parents on a pretty limited basis; at about 16 years or so the parents have to want them back. If the runaway breaks the law while on the run they can be placed in a juvy facility, or a mental health facility. If they haven't broken the law--but their parents have had enough of them--there are other programs and facilities for them to go in most places in the United States. For instance, here in Anchorage we have a facility run by the Catholic Church where kids can go and nobody can come in to get them if they haven't broken the law. It is a safe place until they get their shit together, but they can't stay there indefinitely. I know this because I deal every day with kids who have made the choice not to live at home, may or may not be "legally emancipated," and often live on the street or in some program but still need to get a high school diploma. Some of these kids are pretty savvy.

You have a lot of "ifs" there, Will. *If* the police wouldn't force runaways to return home, *if* children were able to sign (legally binding) contracts, *then* kids could leave home and family and school and live happily ever after...

I think you *could* now tell your parents you want to leave. Just explain in nice terms that age has nothing to do with it, you have decided to move out and face life on your own terms without their support or meddling. Better yet, pack your stuff and leave a note on the kitchen table explaining your position. Ask them to not pursue you because you have decided you are ready to be a responsible citizen without their help. You can do this, Will, put up or shut up!

[SoulRiser]

Quote:You have a lot of "ifs" there, Will. *If* the police wouldn't force runaways to return home, *if* children were able to sign (legally binding) contracts, *then* kids could leave home and family and school and live happily ever after...

The only way to change things for the better is to think about what needs to be different. That normally involves a lot of "ifs".

Quote:I don't understand how you come up with this stuff. How can there be "no legal distinction between children and adults"?

They're both human.

Quote:In every society there has ever been or ever will be, children will be subordinate to the parents who brought them into the world and support them until they are capable of living on their own.

That's awfully depressing. Let me re-word that for you.

Quote:In every society there has ever been or ever will be, children will be dependant on the parents who brought them into the world and support them until they are capable of living on their own.

Now it makes logical sense and also doesn't sound incredibly depressing. There is no logical reason why children should be subordinate, but it makes sense that they would be dependant on others. Though, that doesn't necessarily have to be their birth parents.

Quote:For instance, here in Anchorage we have a facility run by the Catholic Church where kids can go and nobody can come in to get them if they haven't broken the law. It is a safe place until they get their shit together, but they can't stay there indefinitely.

That's really cool. Can anyone start a facility like that or is that just a church thing?

Quote:Man, parents are part of the problem, school is part of the problem.
What we need to do is strike at the root of the thing.

We can't strike any roots if we don't know where they are. Please enlighten us

[thewake]

akdonn Wrote:Weswammy:

And "the root of the thing" is?????

More or less the root of all evil can be traced to one thing: The love of money.
WE need a moneyless society, like in Star Trek.

[akdonn]

You've made some interesting distinctions there, SoulRiser, so with all due respect let me tell you how I see it:

From the time you are born until sometime in your teens you are a dependent; you didn't ask to be born, your parents chose to bring you into the world, and there is a mutual responsibility to live in a safe and accommodating environment. Society expects this and invests much in support of young people at many levels. However, at some point in your teens your role in the family must change from being a "dependent" to being a "subordinate," much the same as you become a subordinate when you take a job and work for an employer. The difference is that your "job" as a young adult is to gain the education and skill set that will make you independent. From my perspective, the goal of education is autonomy.

Many parents don't understand this, and their own inadequacies as humans can inflame the situation with their kids instead of developing mutual understanding with appropriate respectful boundaries. My own parents did not understand this, my siblings do not understand this, their young adult kids don't understand this and I don't expect their grandkids to understand this either. It's called "white trash" and I admit I have had to do a lot to get away from it--like get a formal education! On the other hand, I chose early in my adult life to never have my own children. I have never regretted that choice and believe it has given me objectivity in my dealing with both young people and adults while I have watched several generations of my family members go through predictable cycles of drama over several decades.

The teen years are a dangerous time for young people because they are given new responsibilities but they may not be mature or intelligent enough to use them appropriately. They are easily drawn into trying to be something they are not, jumping onto bandwagons, and can be exploited easily. I have students who have been given opportunities and have done incredibly stupid things that ended them up in jail. Some have court-ordered third-party custodians, who have to hang around when my student is working with me on school work they now are very anxious to do. Others may have parents who cannot get along--who even try to hurt each other--and as they go through the divorce process, the court must appoint a "Guardian Ad Litem" to assure the minor's basic needs are met. This is also a time when some young people make serious enough mistakes that they are tried as adults--in some states can even get the death penalty. Although there is a legal distinction between children and adults, the distinction can quickly change with egregious behavior, regardless of the fact we are talking about humans.

The safe house I'm talking about in Anchorage started out as a home for pregnant teens but evolved into what it is today. I'm sure anybody could start such an endeavor just about anywhere but it is an extremely expensive venture--a 24-hour facility in downtown property with very demanding challenges. We are fortunate here to have a lot of social services because we are still kind of a frontier. Many people with many kinds of problems seem to be attracted to Alaska after failing somewhere else.

These are my views, SoulRiser, and they are not meant to diminish or demean what may be "youthful naiveté." I was a very idealistic youth myself and sometimes I think back on stuff I said or did and wish somebody had told *me* "where the bear shit in the buckwheat."

[Darthmat]

Weswammy Wrote:

akdonn Wrote:Weswammy:

And "the root of the thing" is?????

More or less the root of all evil can be traced to one thing: The love of money.
WE need a moneyless society, like in Star Trek.

No, it's not money, it's human greed, stupid. (if what you are saying is true, I am not saying it is.)

[thewake]

The love of money is greed isn't it?

Really we wouldn't be in the mess we're in if it wasn't for greed of the powerful.

[Darthmat]

Greed can be applied to many things, not just money, is what I was saying. And it's 'cus of that greed....

[thewake]

That they want us to be their slaves! It's a conspiracy man!!!!

[monkey]

I'm in the "well every one goes u should just deal with it" situation it sucks,

[himank]

Children all property of your freinds, lets face it who wants their child to drop out? Who wants that? Nobody. Nothing is going to EVER happen, no changes in the world. Fucking school will be the same even in the next 100 years. I gurantee you.

[youvebeenthunderstruck]

himank Wrote:Children all property of your freinds, lets face it who wants their child to drop out? Who wants that? Nobody. Nothing is going to EVER happen, no changes in the world. Fucking school will be the same even in the next 100 years. I gurantee you.

With an attitude like that it will.

[thewake]

Someday we'll be the ones in charge and we could change it.

[SoulRiser]

I have come to notice that the vast majority of people on these forums have crappy parents. Maybe if they didn't have crappy parents, they wouldn't be here. Which kind of proves the point of this thread. The parents are indeed the problem. ... Or more like, they're the obstacle in the way of solving the problem (ie, the choice to try some other alternative).

(okay, fine, so "crappy" might be a bit harsh. Replace it with something else that makes you feel better, if you want).

[Jackass McAwesome]

I'll keep the adjective "crappy" I think =P

[cooltoonist]

Eh, I dont have crappy parents. They gave me alot of freedom and let me do things by my own will.

[akdonn]

I agree 100% that parents are usually the problem. As a teacher, I recognize that "Parents are the first teacher." Parents set the die, and then send their kids to school for somebody else to deal with the problems that the parents can't deal with. Okay, so we are trained to do that and I've found that generally I can handle a classroom or a small group or individual students pretty well. But then, Parent-Teacher night comes around and I have found out some remarkable things about why some kids are so screwed up.

Take that to the next level, and you have the "super parents" who get involved in everything or even get elected to the school board. That's right, folks, I've had students in my class who were elected officials--on the local school board, on the local Municipal Assembly--community big-shots. Of course their kids can't do anything wrong, and the parents want you to know how very much they support your effort, bla, bla, bla until something unexpected happens. Then watch out!!!

There is another side of school that I have seen that most of you may not have any idea about, and you won't until you have kids and you never liked school anyway so.........