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The School Survival Forums are permanently retired. If you need help with quitting school, unsupportive parents or anything else, there is a list of resources on the Help Page.

If you want to write about your experiences in school, you can write on our blog.

To everyone who joined these forums at some point, and got discouraged by the negativity and left after a while (or even got literally scared off): I'm sorry.

I wasn't good enough at encouraging people to be kinder, and removing people who refuse to be kind. Encouraging people is hard, and removing people creates conflict, and I hate conflict... so that's why I wasn't better at it.

I was a very, very sensitive teen. The atmosphere of this forum as it is now, if it had existed in 1996, would probably have upset me far more than it would have helped.

I can handle quite a lot of negativity and even abuse now, but that isn't the point. I want to help people. I want to help the people who need it the most, and I want to help people like the 1996 version of me.

I'm still figuring out the best way to do that, but as it is now, these forums are doing more harm than good, and I can't keep running them.

Thank you to the few people who have tried to understand my point of view so far. I really, really appreciate you guys. You are beautiful people.

Everyone else: If after everything I've said so far, you still don't understand my motivations, I think it's unlikely that you will. We're just too different. Maybe someday in the future it might make sense, but until then, there's no point in arguing about it. I don't have the time or the energy for arguing anymore. I will focus my time and energy on people who support me, and those who need help.

-SoulRiser

The forums are mostly read-only and are in a maintenance/testing phase, before being permanently archived. Please use this time to get the contact details of people you'd like to keep in touch with. My contact details are here.

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HUGE Problem With School
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Darthmat Offline
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HUGE Problem With School

I will continue later, but basically, schools teach to the majority, only.

Gotta run kthxbye.

I highly suggest Mobb Deep's albums The Infamous and Hell on Earth, if you have not listened to it yet.
01-28-2008 05:35 AM
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Justin :D Offline
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I'm here to ruin this thread before it's even begun.
01-28-2008 05:38 AM
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randyhart Offline
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Yeah "The Masses" and all those larks people like us aren't built for school I guess :(

I hope I get into collage this year after school or else I'll be seriously out of options

The World seemed to all make sense but that sense seemed to slowly fade now in 11th grade
01-28-2008 05:48 AM
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happy fool called Nigel Offline
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.....

They in the sea being burnt, they in the burnt ship drowned.


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01-28-2008 05:48 AM
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Darthmat Offline
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I don't just mean on intelligence level either, like, most students learn well with Home Work and Tests, but not all do.

I highly suggest Mobb Deep's albums The Infamous and Hell on Earth, if you have not listened to it yet.
01-28-2008 05:58 AM
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youvebeenthunderstruck Offline
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"Most"? No. Very few people actually LEARN in high school.
01-28-2008 06:10 AM
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Darthmat Offline
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Good point.

I highly suggest Mobb Deep's albums The Infamous and Hell on Earth, if you have not listened to it yet.
01-28-2008 06:18 AM
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akdonn Offline
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Thunder:
Quote:"Most"? No. Very few people actually LEARN in high school.

Prove it. I'm having to take a university class in "Education Measurement and Assessment" to update my Alaska Teaching Certificate, and it is possible to give people tests before they start a class, tests during the course of the class, and tests at the end of the class to not only show learning is happening, but also show what has not been learned. I know students I've had who are terribly low in some area and by the end of the semester can pass the High School Qualifying Exam.

I think MOST people learn in high school. Some don't. Some take alternate routes. However, cognitive growth IS measurable.

Hey, this is off topic but the photo below is what the sun will look like when it comes up in Barrow on Wednesday! It hasn't come up since November, 2007.


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01-28-2008 12:12 PM
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HWM_Fan Offline
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I dunno, just because someone can improve the score on a test after taking a course doesn't necessarily mean that they learned the material, it means they memorized it which is the basis of the school system. I personally don't believe that memorization and learning are the same thing, but I guess it really depends on how you define learning.
01-28-2008 12:58 PM
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youvebeenthunderstruck Offline
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I'm going to refuse to prove it and instead go on and on about your sun picture for no reason.

But seriously, passing tests doesn't necessarily mean you've learnt anything. Tests = memorization. Now, sure, that may seem like the same as learning, because if you've learnt it through memorization you've probably learnt it anyway. But I for example graduated high school and can't remember about 85% of what was taught. The problem is that if you're not interested in the material, you're not likely to remember it. This sounds like a lie, but it's not. I know people who may have passed tests but don't remember much from it.

I know you're in an alternative school; I was talking about high school. The alternative school is better in the fact that there's less work involved, and it's better generally. I still don't believe kids should be forced to attend any school, though.
01-28-2008 01:13 PM
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psychopath Offline
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youvebeenthunderstruck Wrote:I'm going to refuse to prove it and instead go on and on about your sun picture for no reason.

But seriously, passing tests doesn't necessarily mean you've learnt anything. Tests = memorization. Now, sure, that may seem like the same as learning, because if you've learnt it through memorization you've probably learnt it anyway. But I for example graduated high school and can't remember about 85% of what was taught. The problem is that if you're not interested in the material, you're not likely to remember it. This sounds like a lie, but it's not. I know people who may have passed tests but don't remember much from it.

I know you're in an alternative school; I was talking about high school. The alternative school is better in the fact that there's less work involved, and it's better generally. I still don't believe kids should be forced to attend any school, though.

I second that!

Also, in my school at least, VERY few people learn at school. I think there is about 100-200 students in my grade and only about 20 people out of the whole grade ever score good on tests. But the teachers ignore the "failures" and only look at this top 20.
01-28-2008 02:39 PM
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mudkip liek Offline
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psychopath Wrote:
youvebeenthunderstruck Wrote:I'm going to refuse to prove it and instead go on and on about your sun picture for no reason.

But seriously, passing tests doesn't necessarily mean you've learnt anything. Tests = memorization. Now, sure, that may seem like the same as learning, because if you've learnt it through memorization you've probably learnt it anyway. But I for example graduated high school and can't remember about 85% of what was taught. The problem is that if you're not interested in the material, you're not likely to remember it. This sounds like a lie, but it's not. I know people who may have passed tests but don't remember much from it.

I know you're in an alternative school; I was talking about high school. The alternative school is better in the fact that there's less work involved, and it's better generally. I still don't believe kids should be forced to attend any school, though.

I second that!

Also, in my school at least, VERY few people learn at school. I think there is about 100-200 students in my grade and only about 20 people out of the whole grade ever score good on tests. But the teachers ignore the "failures" and only look at this top 20.

I third that. Also, do you know how much I DESPISE it when teachers call the students that pass tests "smart"? Hey, just because you sat there studying and memorizing useless bullshit facts, doesn't mean you're smart.

And just for the heck of it, I wanted to mention that in Algebra we're learning about imaginary numbers. Do I even NEED to begin talking about how pointless this lesson is....JUST from the name itself?
01-29-2008 07:35 AM
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Darthmat Offline
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Laugh To true.

I highly suggest Mobb Deep's albums The Infamous and Hell on Earth, if you have not listened to it yet.
01-29-2008 08:23 AM
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akdonn Offline
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Research has proved that you may not know what you have learned but you have learned it. Testing is only one way to measure learning but over the decades of developing tests and measuring how people learn I think it foolhardy to try to dismiss tests as some stupid conspiracy to reinforce some kids who have an ability to pass tests but don't really know anything. You can argue this, second it and third it and whatever else you want to do, but the fact is you will be taking tests all of your life and tests not only measure what you have learned but they also are themselves teaching tools.

When you quit school, or when you flunk a test, you are just giving those who stay in school and pass tests more power over you in the economics of life that decide who gets what. If you don't understand that reality you are kidding yourself.


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01-29-2008 02:31 PM
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youvebeenthunderstruck Offline
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What you say about tests is true, you have to show knowledge in some areas in test form to show that you, uh, have knowledge. However, where your argument falls down is the fact that in a job, you chose that job, you have a certain interest in it, even if it's low and the lesser evil out of all your options. In school, if you hate it and would choose anything else besides being forced to go there, you have no interest. And therefore it's not an accurate measure of ability. Maybe it is according to the teaching style, but objectively, it doesn't mean you've learned anything.
01-29-2008 02:40 PM
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akdonn Offline
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You can make anything miserable just by deciding you are going to. You can be a picky eater, or you can complain about everything anybody else does, or any wide range of behaviors because you choose them. In fact, that is one of the greatest difficulties about a personal relationship with another person after the "honeymoon" is over--trying to pick the things you both agree to dislike and trying to emphasize the things that are going to reinforce your relationship.

Do you think you are going to get to pick every job you will have in your life? Used to be people found one job, with one company (in the US anyway), and stayed with it until they retired and lived happily ever after. Well, times have changed. It is not unusual for people to have many jobs and there are all kinds of reasons why they get any particular job and why they leave any particular job. I have had jobs I absolutely hated but made good money, and jobs I loved but didn't make squat.

School is a job. Like it, hate it, accept it, fight it, doesn't matter. The people who learn how to cope with what they don't like, and how to adapt what they don't like into something they can accept, don't allow school to be a miserable experience.

When I hook a big Alaskan Salmon or Halibut on my fishing pole from my boat in the ocean I expect that fish to fight it as I reel it in. The more it fights, the better I like it. I think there should be more consideration in this forum for how to make school work for students instead of how people who are fighting it make it fun for the lousy teachers who have you hooked for a certain number of hours per day and know you can't do anything about it. They might not like it themselves, but students who fight it make it fun for some teachers!

Survival is an important learning skill that testing measures and teaches.


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01-29-2008 03:15 PM
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youvebeenthunderstruck Offline
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I don't think testing measures survival skill, but anyway.

The problem is that you're invoking this "It's what you make of it, if you're miserable that's your problem." attitude again, which is very much like "It's worse elsewhere in the world, stop complaining." - The same thing could be applied to other civil rights issues. If I were to say of Apartheid "Just get used to it.", people would tell me that I was wrong, why is school different? You as a person are capable of choosing which way you want to learn, not forced into one mold.

"Do you think you are going to get to pick every job you will have in your life?" No, not every job, I don't know anyone who has that expectation, but it still doesn't mean that we have to be tolerant of everything. And if you really don't have a choice in a job, it's because of something you've done, it's your own doing, whereas in school you haven't had a chance to "prove" yourself and the decision for you to go is an arbitrary one. Some people do very well without school, and yet are shipped off there anyway. You can also learn the same disciplines out of school than you do in school. Of course, you'd avoid the depression, pressure to conform, etc etc, but more importantly, you'd have a stronger sense of individuality.

I hope I've explained this well enough.
01-29-2008 03:24 PM
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akdonn Offline
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I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree here, Thunder. Nobody is ever going to come up with an institution of government that pleases everybody, and nobody is going to eliminate school! There are many dimensions of school and they are here to stay. As long as a person is under the age of consent, and until a majority of parents decide they don't need to send their kids to school, and until society quits investing huge amounts of capital in buildings and maintenance and materials and trained people, the bleating of those kids who say they don't like school is about the same as the bleating of a steer getting a hot brand on its ass--it might hurt but it ain't going away!

Some parents decide they are going to "home school" their kids and I think that results in a wide range of either illiterate fools or socially deprived independent snobs. Some parents coddle their kids and say they are so special the school has to jump through hoops to accommodate their demands. Now we have a generation or two of "bubble wrap children" who have been protected from all kinds of things I had to deal with as a kid--for instance, we had metal playground equipment that kids would lick and get their tongues stuck to at freezing temperatures. There are now so many regulations about playground equipment--and everything else having to do with school--that *the business of school* is getting bigger and more bureaucratic every day. Additionally, most schools today are so super-charged with stuff that doesn't matter that I can't blame kids for asking: WHY?

Go ahead and ask. Tell everybody all your reasons, and all your contrived arguments about the evil of school, but don't expect anything to change. If anything, you can expect it to get worse because parents support schools. Rather, I recommend you find a strategy for dealing with it in a way that will help you personally to be a successful human being instead of a loser who believed in a false premise until it was too late!

As I do, someday you will look back and laugh at some of the stuff you took sooooooo seriously when you didn't know any better!




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01-29-2008 03:56 PM
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youvebeenthunderstruck Offline
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"nobody is going to eliminate school!"

I never said that school should be eliminated, what I'm for is choice in education. If I wanted to get rid of school that would be against freedom of speech.

"As long as a person is under the age of consent...away!"

I'm not waiting that long. If other civil rights groups didn't speak up, they would still be in the same situation now. That is how change happens, not by waiting for people, but by bringing the cause to them.

"Some parents decide they are going to "home school" their kids and I think that results in a wide range of either illiterate fools or socially deprived independent snobs."

Very, very wrong. I can't come up with any studies, but there is no tendancy for homeschoolers to be as you described.

"Some parents coddle their kids and say they are so special the school has to jump through hoops to accommodate their demands."

Well, you got me there. I don't have any sympathy for them either.

"Now we have a generation or two of "bubble wrap children" who have been protected from all kinds of things I had to deal with as a kid--for instance, we had metal playground equipment that kids would lick and get their tongues stuck to at freezing temperatures."

And who protects them? Parents, yes, but school also doesn't teach relevant information. I think that if they truly wanted a generation of inspired, sharp and pleasant human beings, they would make learning an exploration. As it is now the "shut up and sit down" attitude is what school is defined by.

"There are now so many regulations about playground equipment--and everything else having to do with school--that *the business of school* is getting bigger and more bureaucratic every day."

This I also agree with, a lot of my teachers thought that some decisions from the powers that be higher up were decisions that only inmates in a mental institution would even think of putting into place. Standardized testing, for example. I realize that the teachers under that system are forced to teach a certain way.

"As I do, someday you will look back and laugh at some of the stuff you took sooooooo seriously when you didn't know any better!"

That may sound true under other circumstances, but there are people who are of the older sort who also think that people should have choice in how they educate themselves. Yes, a lot of members on this site are teenagers, but we do have a 37 year old and a 27 year old, for instance. And John Taylor Gatto, one of the biggest anti-compulsory-school advocates, is quite a bit older. I don't know his exact age. AND he was a teacher of high school for 29 years, AND he won "Teacher of the Year" 3 times!

As one of the articles on this site explains, teen rebellion and teen angst isn't just a phase, it is a genuine civil rights issue at hand, and it's quite legitimate!
01-29-2008 04:12 PM
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akdonn Offline
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I can't help responding...

Nothing I have said or will say here is meant in any way to diminish your right to believe as you do--even if you are wrong.

Today we have more choice in education than we have had in the history of civilization.

School is not a civil rights issue. You demean the efforts of people like MLK by comparing the issues you raise with the civil rights cause that was a fundamental conflict within the US Constitution when it declared "All Men are Created Equal" and then supported slavery and separate accommodations. That problem required the bloodiest war this country has ever been in to solve--and it still didn't happen until the 1960s and beyond.

Every kid who has ever gone to school had something to complain about it. Tom Sawyer went to school, Huckleberry Finn didn't; it is part of our culture and our literature.

I don't know about home school results anywhere else, but in Alaska we have more than our share of idiots, zealots, and Neanderthals who home-school their kids for ideological or ignorant reasons. I've seen the results when they try to get into public school and can't find their ass with both hands.

We agree that parents are the problem; they expect the schools to do what they are unwilling or unable to do themselves. On the other hand there are also parents who challenge the schools and create even larger difficulties for a system that is extended beyond its abilities trying to do more than it is designed to do.

Standardized testing is simply a system for establishing a "norm" by which kids in Alaska can be measured against the same caliber of kids in New York. If it was left to most of the teachers I've become acquainted with there would be no testing and everybody would spend all day in feel-good activities that didn't require the teacher to do anything but disperse happy talk.

Teen rebellion and teen angst have always been a concern of society--especially kids getting drunk and tearing up things or wrecking cars and killing each other. My generation was the first one to popularize marijuana use, use LSD and all kinds of other things that outraged our parents. On one occasion Jerry Rubin was reported to have declared that "all youth should kill their parents!" My own dad--knowing I had read every book Rubin wrote--asked my opinion about that statement. I told him: "Dad, I don't agree completely with Jerry on this matter!" When he asked me what I meant by "completely" I said: "I don't think we should kill our parents outright, I think we should TORTURE them to death!"

Thunder, there's really nothing new under the sun...


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01-29-2008 04:52 PM
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youvebeenthunderstruck Offline
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"Today we have more choice in education than we have had in the history of civilization."

What do you base this on, or what do you compare this to? Compulsory education was invented by the Prussians, and this was quite recent, I'm going to say the early 19th century. Before that, going to school was considered to be a privilege that the rich had and the poor didn't, but you were still free to do with your mind as you wished. (In the middle ages, you were often sent to work at a young age. Today, of course, we have more technology and ergo we have it easier. And some kids still get dropped out of school by their parents and sent to work.)

"School is not a civil rights issue. You demean the efforts of people like MLK by comparing the issues you raise with the civil rights cause that was a fundamental conflict within the US Constitution when it declared "All Men are Created Equal" and then supported slavery and separate accommodations. That problem required the bloodiest war this country has ever been in to solve--and it still didn't happen until the 1960s and beyond.'

School is very much a civil rights issue. Let me take your example, the blacks fought for their rights and eventually won, you base this on the conflict in the Constitution. If "All men are created equal" is in the Constitution, children should have the freedom of speech right to speak out against or for where their parents send them for many years. Do they have that freedom? No. In this regard, it violates the Constitution, and it is a civil rights issue. Whenever a group of people does not have full rights (excluding things such as rape or murder, I mean liberties that other groups actually have), that is a civil rights issue.

"Every kid who has ever gone to school had something to complain about it."

Well, you didn't. And maybe, just maybe, those who had a complaint against being forced somewhere against their will had a reason for complaining. Complaining should mean that there is something wrong, not that complaining is a natural part of it and that the system is correct anyway.

"I don't know about home school results anywhere else, but in Alaska we have more than our share of idiots, zealots, and Neanderthals who home-school their kids for ideological or ignorant reasons. I've seen the results when they try to get into public school and can't find their ass with both hands."

I haven't seen your students, you haven't seen ours, so I don't know if there is a way to validate anything here. We do have at least one homeschooled student on the forums that I know of, maybe she can shed some light on this. But I will say this, to my mind homeschooling is the correct course of action (unless the student actually wants to go into the public education system and the parents are liberal about their decisions) because arguments about "they won't be socialized" are untrue, because if a person wants socialization all they have to do is go outside. It's a big world. When I was in school I talked to hardly anybody, because I hated most of the students. The socialization failed on me, as it did I imagine on many other people.

"We agree that parents are the problem; they expect the schools to do what they are unwilling or unable to do themselves. On the other hand there are also parents who challenge the schools and create even larger difficulties for a system that is extended beyond its abilities trying to do more than it is designed to do."

I'm glad you at least recognize that it has overextended itself. At the same time, though, you mention something here which is key - "they expect the schools to do what they are unwilling or unable to do themselves" - like educate their children! It means that some parents send their kids to school just because it's the "thing to do" and not based on objective merits.

"Teen rebellion and teen angst have always been a concern of society--especially kids getting drunk and tearing up things or wrecking cars and killing each other."

There is a right way and a wrong way to go about rebelling, and with the 60's in mind the first thing people think of when they hear the words "teenage rebellion" is flipping over cars and all that jazz.

What this site promotes - as do most anti-school advocates - is open discussion, ie debate. We're not going to destroy property, we're going to change ideas. If seen as a movement - and it is, because anybody against anything who is taking any kind of action can be defined as a movement - then it seems a lot better than "The kids will only sit at home all day and play video games and get up to no good" - the fact of the matter is that some people think a certain way, and they should be listened to, as well as anybody should be listened to. And I think we're a lot less radical than some religious groups.

"My generation was the first one to popularize marijuana use, use LSD and all kinds of other things that outraged our parents. On one occasion Jerry Rubin was reported to have declared that "all youth should kill their parents!" My own dad--knowing I had read every book Rubin wrote--asked my opinion about that statement. I told him: "Dad, I don't agree completely with Jerry on this matter!" When he asked me what I meant by "completely" I said: "I don't think we should kill our parents outright, I think we should TORTURE them to death!""

What you said is not representative of an entire group. I don't know what situation you were in, but I've never believed in or said what you did. I think some people deserve it, but that doesn't mean I'll actually do it. And certainly not EVERYONE of a group.

And incidentally, I think MLK Jr. was an amazing person. So one of the last things on my mind is to disrespect him or his great movement.
01-29-2008 05:20 PM
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