Getting Married and Making Babies=A Woman's Success?

[genuine anarchist]

I am not against marriage or having kids at all. If you want to do that, more power to you. However, this rant is for the fucktards that don't seem to think that maybe, just maybe, there are women out there who aren't exactly too keen on the idea of making babies when they're still young and being mothers, at least not yet.

I am 18 years old and a grown woman. I run my own online business, pay my own way for a lot of things (food, clothing, gas, kickboxing classes), and honestly feel that I got over high school a long time ago. The whole mentality left my head at the age of 14. I've had to rely on myself growing up, and I turned out okay, was able to avoid all the "bad influences" like drugs, excessive alcohol, and underage sex that many of my "good, Christian, well-raised" classmates have fallen into. Basically, I consider myself mature enough to make my own decisions and deal with the consequences of those decisions.

So why is it, then, my opinion on marriage and having kids doesn't get taken seriously? I get one of these two responses:
a) Oh, it's just a phase! You'll change your mind!
b) You want to enter the convent, then? Good for you!

For a), no, I’ve considered this for over 5 years! Actually, ever since my hormones have acted up, and that was at age 11. Even back then, I wasn’t too excited about having kids early. The more I learned about sex (besides my school’s abstinence only programs, which did nothing to help), the more I wanted to hold off on having a family, if I ever had one. I’ve dated, had attractions, and have fetishes. I’ve thought about marriage, and I’ve seen many marriage fail because both partners were too irresponsible to get their shit together and/or didn’t live their own lives first. And didn’t have enough money. Do you think I’ll have enough money to raise 3 kids when I’m only 22?

As for b), I’m not exactly secretive about my lack of religion, or lack of interest in it. I’ve studied theology (against my will) for many years and did really well in the class, but I was never religious to begin with. I always felt the dogmas were too restrictive and slow to adapt to progress. So no, I don’t plan on being a “pure woman of God” anytime soon. Again, nothing wrong with that, if it’s someone else’s decision, more power to them, but it’s not for me.

These two responses to my decision (or my thoughts for now, things can change, but if I do decide to have a family(most likely I’ll adopt as well), it won’t be before the age of 30) also re-enforce society’s standard, the virgin-whore complex. Women are expected to fall into one of two categories: the pure, good girl who only has sex with her husband in marriage or stays single and a nun, or a slut. There’s no middle ground, no respect, no freedom to explore or take pride in our sexual nature. Men can sleep around with women and be called “players,” but if women do the same thing with other men, they’re “whores.” This isn’t a feminazi rant, this is simply the truth. Men have more freedom with their sexual behavior than women do.

I know, men have to deal with crap as well if they aren’t in a relationship or don’t “get some.” But this rant is about how fed up I am with people looking down on me because I don’t want to produce more offspring to use up the world’s resources. Oh, before I finish this, here’s another gem a nun at school told me when I told her I might adopt a kid someday when I’m financially stable: “It’s selfish to adopt when you can have your own kids.”

……What? WHAT? It’s selfish of me to give a kid who actually needs a loving home and resources a better life than to produce another kid, another clone of ME? Do you really want that, sister? Another kid I might not be able to support using up more of the world’s resources (though I wouldn’t adopt unless I was sure I could support the kid and had lived my own selfish life first, hence why I won’t do any of this family planning until after I’m 30).

And to finish this rant off, why do women themselves perpetuate this bullshit? Some entitled mothers who think the fruit of their loins are their greatest accomplishment tend to look down on women who aren't mothers or see them as "bitter career women." My own classmates have made it their goal to get married before the age of 25, or "they'll just cry." Bitches...have some self-respect! There's more to life than making babies, and a woman is worht more than her hymen and her womb.

So, thoughts?

[AWOL]

Your objections are falling onto deaf ears, since I hang around people who believe reproduction should be thoroughly scrutinized and marriage should be abolished.

Mostly the latter, but we really need to wipe a continent or two off the face of the Earth.

[genuine anarchist]

You're lucky, then, because most of the people I spend most of my day with think the opposite. Then again, I live in a conservative area. Not saying conservatives are all sexist, backwards-thinking idiots, but a lot of them think my ideas on living are too "radical."

I'm actually indifferent to marriage. I understand that most people here don't like the idea. And I agree that there should be some method to control idiots from spawning excessively.

[HeartofShadows]

AWOL Wrote:Mostly the latter, but we really need to wipe a continent or two off the face of the Earth.

Amen to this Awol.

I won't say I hate marriage as I'm not forced into it but I do believe its to involved in alot of shit that goes on and as society advances women like to think themselves independent alpha races(lifetime) but when it comes down to it they hold their wombs as some sort of bargaining tool to convince themselves of their value(before somebody gets mad I mean some women).

Anarchist I was the same way in high school with studying various religions and beliefs and all they had in common for me was just a hype of convincing themselves that they were right and limiting the way others lived.

Never could take religion seriously period but I'm not as cold as bobman although I mock anyone's belief just to show them the holes in it or to show that its not the ideal belief they put it to be(if you hold a belief and its sacred to you than someone mocking it shouldn't be enough to throw you into some childish fit.

Have you studied Japanese women and how they get along in society? You would love it?

[Prince Rilian]

It's my understanding that it's hard to find a doctor who will do a vasectomy or tubal ligation on a young person who doesn't already have at least one kid. I went to the health center at my school to find out about it (not that they would do it there, just that they would have information and/or refer me to another doctor) and was unequivocally told I would not be able to get that done unless I was married and had one kid already.

It's really quite disgusting. You've got young people who want to do something good. They want to ensure (although supposedly there's still a miniscule chance of making a baby even after a vasectomy/tubal ligation) that they won't bring another human into existence just so it can suffer in one way or another. It's a good thing for the non-existent person, and it's a good thing for the people who already exist or will later. Yet people are so submerged in this idea that life is nothing if it doesn't make more of itself, that they can't even accept the argument that YOU CAN FUCKING ADOPT YOU FUCKTARDS. When I went to the health center, I told them I specifically intended to adopt one or more children later in my life and I just fucking did not want to create more babies when there are already millions I could help. They just went on about how having your "own" baby is better and I'll change my mind. What. The. Fuck.

[~Mystery~]

I'm under the impression that not wanting kids is a plausible option but damaging your organs isn't the way to go about it.

[Prince Rilian]

~Mystery~ Wrote:I'm under the impression that not wanting kids is a plausible option but damaging your organs isn't the way to go about it.

So then how ARE you supposed to go about it? Never have sex?

[Leon Kinotolian]

~Mystery~ Wrote:I'm under the impression that not wanting kids is a plausible option but damaging your organs isn't the way to go about it.

This coming from the person who has on multiple occasions bragged/bluffed about not masturbating for many moons only to find that he has blue balls.

As for the topic in general, I do not believe it is a woman's ultimate goal to get married and have kids. Their goal is whatever they want it to be, and thus, so is their success. That and I don't care for the idea of marriage much anyway.

[KittyKatBlack]

genuine anarchist Wrote:Oh, it's just a phase! You'll change your mind!

I get this from my family every time I say I don't want kids. I should never have kids just to spite them.
And they always want me to hold a fucking baby. Every time my baby cousins stay at my grandmother's, they bitch about me not wanting to hold the fucking baby.

I DON'T WANT TO HOLD THE FUCKING BABY. They shit and piss their pants, they drool, and they cry. That's a fucking day at the zoo, not a lifestyle I want for 3-4 goddamn years until they get their shit together.

[genuine anarchist]

Prince Rilian Wrote:It's my understanding that it's hard to find a doctor who will do a vasectomy or tubal ligation on a young person who doesn't already have at least one kid. I went to the health center at my school to find out about it (not that they would do it there, just that they would have information and/or refer me to another doctor) and was unequivocally told I would not be able to get that done unless I was married and had one kid already.

Sadly, this is true. If I were to walk into a doctor's office right now, as I am, and asked to get my tubes tied, I'd be flat out rejected. The doctor wouldn't even tell me "I suggest you think this through, but in the end, it's your decision," just, "No."

~Mystery~ Wrote:I'm under the impression that not wanting kids is a plausible option but damaging your organs isn't the way to go about it.

A vasectomy or getting one's tubes tied is actually safe and more healthy then, say, an abortion. It doesn't damage your organs or ruin your sex life.

Leon Kinotolian Wrote:As for the topic in general, I do not believe it is a woman's ultimate goal to get married and have kids. Their goal is whatever they want it to be, and thus, so is their success. That and I don't care for the idea of marriage much anyway.

I agree with you there. I have nothing against women who choose on their own to have families and be young mothers. It's when I'm put into that mold that I become pissed.

KittyKatBlack Wrote:I get this from my family every time I say I don't want kids. I should never have kids just to spite them.

Well, don't have kids just because you don't want kids, not just to piss off a few people who shouldn't even control your life. But I know what you mean, especially with holding babies...they're not all cute, you know. For some reason, a baby crying, cooing, or just being a baby pisses me off. Great mother material, eh?

[Prince Rilian]

I like babies. I just don't want to create yet another one when there is already an excess.
I also don't see how anyone could be ok with the idea of having a baby inside them.

[TheCancer]

KittyKatBlack Wrote:

genuine anarchist Wrote:Oh, it's just a phase! You'll change your mind!

I get this from my family every time I say I don't want kids. I should never have kids just to spite them.
And they always want me to hold a fucking baby. Every time my baby cousins stay at my grandmother's, they bitch about me not wanting to hold the fucking baby.

I DON'T WANT TO HOLD THE FUCKING BABY. They shit and piss their pants, they drool, and they cry. That's a fucking day at the zoo, not a lifestyle I want for 3-4 goddamn years until they get their shit together.

When I was in high school I didn't want to ever have kids. Now I'm in my 40's and I'm very glad I never had a child and I still don't want one and I will never want one. Not reproducing is the best thing not to do to yourself and our planet. Sadly, the more idiotic people are the more they seem to want to breed.

[SoulRiser]

Quote:“It’s selfish to adopt when you can have your own kids.”

LOLWUT
That is the most nonsensical thing I've ever heard.

Having your own kids is more selfish - because you can't ask them if they want to be born. So the only reason to have them is for your own sake. You can however adopt a kid that already exists, for his/her own sake instead of your own.

Quote:a) Oh, it's just a phase! You'll change your mind!
b) You want to enter the convent, then? Good for you!

Totally sounds familiar. My parents tell me the first one and someone else I know is always teasing me with the second one. Very few people are willing to listen and actually attempt to understand. So yeah... I feel your pain. It's irritating.

I don't mind adopting, though. I think I'd be a decent parent. But I sure as hell do not EVER EVER EVER want to be pregnant or give birth. I'd rather be stabbed with a katana than do that.

[genuine anarchist]

Most of us can agree that having a baby inside us would be at least slightly disturbing.

Apparently, some people see it differently. I've met girls about my age who think it's wonderful that a life grows inside you. I had this conversation with such a girl, and here's what she said to me:

"Don't you think it's amazing that a little life would grow inside of you? How can anyone not want to experience that? I want to have a lot of kids, they're so cute! I think it's stupid how people wait to have kids when they're old; it's amazing when you're young and can create another life! Plus, the health of the baby will be better if I have one right after high school."

She has a point about the health of the baby being better if you have it in your 20s as opposed to your 30s, but everything else? That's purely her opinion.

I just never understood the fetish with breeding and creating more life. I agree, Soulriser, at least you adopt a kid for his/her sake, instead of having another one for your sake.

[KittyKatBlack]

http://www.livescience.com/13076-parent ... 10203.html

They have a longer version of the article on the Times website. As you can imagine, the majority of the comments consist of "Nuh-uh! I love my kids! They're the best thing that's ever happened to me EVAR!" They really just prove the point of the article.

[TheCancer]

Here's the Times Mag link

http://nymag.com/news/features/67024/

Quote:my son had broken part of the wooden parking garage I’d spent about an hour assembling that morning. This wouldn’t have been a problem per se, except that as I attempted to fix it, he grew impatient and began throwing its various parts at the walls, with one plank very narrowly missing my eye. I recited the rules of the house (no throwing, no hitting). He picked up another large wooden plank. I ducked. He reached for the screwdriver. The scene ended with a time-out in his crib.

I think the truest thing my mother ever said to me was when she was pissed off and said she wished she never had me. If had been as clever as I am now I would have replied 'I wish the same damn thing!' :waah:

[magikarp]

I told my mom often enough as a kid that I wished she hadn't had me, which is retrospect was pretty mean I guess.

[TheCancer]

magikarp Wrote:I told my mom often enough as a kid that I wished she hadn't had me, which is retrospect was pretty mean I guess.

Maybe so. But if she brought it up first then it's fair game, isn't it?

[SoulRiser]

genuine anarchist Wrote:Most of us can agree that having a baby inside us would be at least slightly disturbing.

Apparently, some people see it differently. I've met girls about my age who think it's wonderful that a life grows inside you.

I know someone like that as well. It's an interesting viewpoint, and I can respect it, but I don't think I'll ever understand it.

I mean, you even get people willing to spawn babies for complete strangers, just because they enjoy the process and like being helpful... o_O

To me, it's more like that thing they did in Vietnam to make bamboo shoots grow through a person as a method of torture... that's a form of life growing inside you too.

Different strokes for different folks...

[magikarp]

TheCancer Wrote:

magikarp Wrote:I told my mom often enough as a kid that I wished she hadn't had me, which is retrospect was pretty mean I guess.

Maybe so. But if she brought it up first then it's fair game, isn't it?

Well, yeah. She didn't though, she just used to complain about how much work having kids is.

edit to avoid double post: I always wanted to have kids though, but I won't because I'd be a shit parent. I can't even take care of a cat, which might as well be the official lesbian baby-substitute, so having a kid would be a pretty terrible idea.

[HeartofShadows]

I actually asked people this as part of an assignment in high school. I got 6 people who wished they were never born over 67 people who think life is a special gift.

[Leon Kinotolian]

magikarp Wrote:I can't even take care of a cat, which might as well be the official lesbian baby-substitute

Excuse me for being off-topic, but I just found this funny because apparently, there's a game or ten out there that if you happen to play a lesbian character and get with a lady, you adopt a cat instead of having a baby.

Anyway, back on track...

genuine anarchist Wrote:Most of us can agree that having a baby inside us would be at least slightly disturbing.

Apparently, some people see it differently. I've met girls about my age who think it's wonderful that a life grows inside you. I had this conversation with such a girl, and here's what she said to me:

"Don't you think it's amazing that a little life would grow inside of you? How can anyone not want to experience that? I want to have a lot of kids, they're so cute! I think it's stupid how people wait to have kids when they're old; it's amazing when you're young and can create another life! Plus, the health of the baby will be better if I have one right after high school."

She has a point about the health of the baby being better if you have it in your 20s as opposed to your 30s, but everything else? That's purely her opinion.

Considering I'm a male, if I had a kid growing inside me, I'd have a serious problem ahead of me... So yes, it's a disturbing thought. When I think of it like that, anyway.

That girl is a bit of a lunatic if you ask me. She's what, your age, 18? Wants a lot of kids? Like you said, the only logical bit in there is that a child's health will be much better that early on than a mother having one at 30. Should that be what seals the deal? No, god damn it.

genuine anarchist Wrote:

Prince Rilian Wrote:It's my understanding that it's hard to find a doctor who will do a vasectomy or tubal ligation on a young person who doesn't already have at least one kid. I went to the health center at my school to find out about it (not that they would do it there, just that they would have information and/or refer me to another doctor) and was unequivocally told I would not be able to get that done unless I was married and had one kid already.

Sadly, this is true. If I were to walk into a doctor's office right now, as I am, and asked to get my tubes tied, I'd be flat out rejected. The doctor wouldn't even tell me "I suggest you think this through, but in the end, it's your decision," just, "No."

Isn't this technically illegal? I mean the doctor giving you a flat no. Granted, this is hypothetical (or so I assume), but if he did just say no, couldn't you call him on not following regulation or something?

[Prince Rilian]

Yeah, it doesn't make sense, right? But I wouldn't want to be getting a procedure done by a doctor who doesn't think I should be doing it. They might fuck it up out of their stupid "morals".

I can totally understand the desire to have kids, and go through that whole natural process. I see the appeal of it, I do. But I also see that it is not all lemondrops and gumdrops (lol barney song) and I use my rational thinking skills to determine that it would not be a good decision.

But having lots of kids just seems stupid to me. You don't really get to have a good relationship with any of them if you have 11 kids like my mom's parents did. I think if I were to have a kid, it would definitely be by adoption (though I would always wonder, what if I had reproduced my own DNA...) and I would probably have only ONE kid, and try to have the most devoted and loving relationship with them. If the kid said they wanted a sibling, then maybe I'd consider getting another one.

[AWOL]

I don't see the appeal.

'There's a life growing inside of me'. There are a lot more than a couple million lives outside of you that don't have homes or food. Grow the fuck up and adopt a baby.

'I get to spread my beliefs'. You mean the same beliefs that led to you intentionally forming a parasite in your stomach? Sod off ye wankers.

'I love it so much'. I hate my parents, and it's not some silly phase. They are completely different from me, have different political, religious and social standpoints. If you're going to love them, love them based on something at least slightly objective.

There are no good arguments towards having a kid of your own. None.

[Prince Rilian]

It's just instinct. Obviously you can see how evolution would have led to genes that have a drive to reproduce themselves being more common.

But we can overcome our instincts with our rational minds.

[~Mystery~]

Why would we want to do that?? Humanitarianism is humanities greatest weakness.

[genuine anarchist]

I guess the only "good" argument toward having a kid of your own is pride. Pride in producing another one of you that you can spread your beliefs to and send out into the world, carrying on your legacy because what would we do in a world not filled with selfish, irresponsible egomaniacs?

I understand why people find childbirth beautiful, and I respect their opinions, but they just can't seem to apply them only to their lives. Why does it bother people I don't even know that well that I may not want to produce any offspring? They don't pay my bills, buy my food, or know what I"m actually like. To them, being a single woman means I'll grow old and alone and bitter. Yeah, and the people who have kids too early will age faster due to stress, get fatter, and grumble at the youth they didn't live wisely.

[Prince Rilian]

Having a kid (however you get it) can be great, I think, if you really want to do it. Most people don't really want to do it. Those are the people who bitch at their kids all the time and complain about their wasted life. I in fact have known one person who was actually a good parent and had a respectful and happy relationship with her son. It is possible.

As for why strangers freak out about your desire not to have kids, I think it's because they don't want to have to deal with making a choice. They want to pretend it's not a choice.

[KittyKatBlack]

genuine anarchist Wrote:I guess the only "good" argument toward having a kid of your own is pride. Pride in producing another one of you that you can spread your beliefs to and send out into the world, carrying on your legacy because what would we do in a world not filled with selfish, irresponsible egomaniacs?

This reminds me of something that greatly pissed me off last year. I kept seeing those "Your Baby Can Read" infomercials and decided to do a little research to see if it really worked. Apparently, most evidence suggests not. They will learn to memorize how the word looks and the answer associated with the word, but they won't learn to sound the words out, which is essential to learning how to read, according to the articles I read. So, they will get a head start, as long as they continue to memorize words, but eventually the results will even out and they won't be any better at reading than children who didn't follow the program.

However, there were a flood of comments in the articles from parents who bought it defending it. Most apparently didn't even read the articles about the ineffectiveness of the program because most of them didn't provide any counter-evidence, just that their children were memorizing the words (as was explained in the article) and therefore it worked. These were a bit anger inducing, but what really pissed me off was one comment from a father which basically amounted to "my children will be geniuses while the rest of yours will be retarded."

Few things piss me off more than using your offspring like that. It's just dick-stroking triggered by being butthurt that he was stupid enough to buy a questionable product without researching it first. If I had to speculate about his motivation given his response, I'd guess that he either isn't successful in the mainstream sense or just isn't a very intelligent person and is using his kids to make up for some lack of intellectual fulfillment.

[Prince Rilian]

On one of the commercials, a parent said that the kid began to read new words, not just memorized ones. So, is that a lie, you think? Or maybe that particular kid happened to actually be a genius.