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Creating a rebel infrastructure.
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Absnt Offline
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Post: #1
Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Creating a rebel infrastructure.

This idea has been mentioned a couple of different times on here, and it interests me, so let's discuss it.

I think we, as in everyone who has a problem with the government, should build a type of "anarchist" or anti-government type infrastructure for rebels. The main idea being that we would have the right means to do what we want, and increase our freedom. It would be an international project to free ourselves from having to go through bullshit government hoops for doing the things we need to do. I spent the school day today thinking about this and writing down some ideas. So below is what I think we would need to do to create this.

Communication

Obviously we want to ensure the freedom to communicate and use the internet anonymously, and we already have a lot of tools to do this, but the more the merrier.

Anonymizers: Things like TOR, freenet, proxies and pretty much any other software or hardware that will keep us anonymous and free from restrictions.

ISP's: We would probably want to have ISP's like the pirate party as to ensure we have access to the internet. Having ISP's isn't necessary, but it would be extremely useful. Especially since ISP's often do whatever the government says.

Encryption: Open source encryption. Encrypt fucking everything. Hard drives, instant messages, torrents, emails, whatever. Use fucking encryption.

Anonymous communication methods: Websites that don't keep logs, encrypted IRC's, encrypted email, websites that are secure and won't get shut down etc...

Travel.

International movement today is much too difficult. It restricts people based on country, age, applicability, nationality and more. Also, fuck the TSA.

Privately owned ships/boats: For the international movement of supplies and people.

Privately owned airplanes: For the international movement of supplies and people. - To avoid retarded ass passports and airport security and shit.

Private landing strips: To land the planes without having to deal with commercial airports.

Oh, and don't expect fancy ships or 747's either. I'm talking old WWII type cargo planes that can haul people as well.

Housing/Quarters.

Obviously, it would be nice to have a place to stay on international operations or whatever. Some good ideas would be:

- Liberated and renovated abandoned buildings.

- Living with "comrades" or others who think the same way while you're doing what you gotta do... We could set up programs to find people places to stay 'n stuff.

- Vans/Cabin Kits/Renovated 18 wheelers/cheap houses/ whatever. You could personally rent out a place, or buy a vehicle and renovate it. Whatever you gotta do.

- Barracks/Privately owned warehouses. People could buy or occupy abandoned warehouses and/or barracks and have shitloads of people, and equipment there. This is probably best for protests and shit.

Supplies/Collective gear.

Many operations, revolutions and the like will require supplies, funding and gear. Most protests and government-replacements will require a fast build up of these supplies. In order to do this, I suggest each individual acquire their own gear, so as to prevent the need for a collective stash that could be raided. If a collective stash is necessary, however, warehouses or old barns would be decent places to operate out of.

Medical

- Field hospitals. Field hospitals could be used for anything from protests to armed revolutions. Obviously they won't be on par with actual hospitals, but they will do for first aid and minor injuries. Evacs will be required for anything more serious.

- Regular hospitals. - These can be used if necessary. Beware of questioning by officials, and costs. Lie about your injuries, or do whatever you have to do to keep from incriminating yourself.

Field Medics - For evacuating injured, and administering first aid.

Hospitals in liberated territories. - In the case of a revolution, hospitals that are located in liberated territory are invaluable resources.

Land/Cities

Creating a town or moving a large number of anarchists/revolutionaries/whatever into one area can help create a type of safe haven. A stronghold if you will.

Purchasing and building a town on small Islands is ideal. Breaking off and claiming independence would also be badass. It would give us a huge advantage and would give us more legitimacy.

Funding.

No matter how much you hate money, capitalism or whatever, you cannot deny the fact that we still live in a world dominated by it. Money will be necessary to operate this infrastructure. A lot of the infrastructure, especially internet based infrastructure, can be operated off of donations. As for travel, and in some cases housing, I suggest a pay-per-use style form of funding. As in, you have to pay a reasonable fee in order to use the service. The hospitals can probably be run off of donations for the event that requires the hospital. I suggest people purchase and build their own gear.

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03-09-2011 08:18 AM
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Post: #2
Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Thought anarchy was suppose to be about freedom?

Absent you are trying to bring structure to anarchy.

This just sounds like another makeshift 3rd world place.

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03-10-2011 03:22 AM
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Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

I sincerely doubt that most of this stuff could last long in a first-world country. Hate to break it to you, but TOR and proxies can be traced if the government tries hard enough, which they certainly would if there was a rebellion brewing on their own soil. Private vehicles are still subject to passport checks; owning a jet or boat doesn't mean you can just bounce around from country to country without doing an paperwork.

Private landing strips, field hospitals, rebel strongholds, ammo dumps, liberated buildings, barracks...I'll give them twelve hours after the first rebel attack before they're either overrun with National Guard or bombed into dust. Stationary sites won't work in modern rebellion. Surveillance and espionage is too sophisticated, and no rebellion could defend a fixed position against the combined forces of the FBI, ATF and National Guard for very long. A rebellion on First-World ground has to be either hidden, mobile, or both. Probably both.

Same thing with liberated towns. As soon as a rebel flag is raised over the roof, the government's hammer will fall and you're deluding yourself if you think you can keep them out for long. Cities would undoubtedly play an important role and there would probably be urban areas that were full of sympathizers who'd shelter the rebels, but the idea of a completely rebel-controlled town is laughable (at least until the final stages of the uprising, when the government is on its way out).
Now, there is one way to keep a town under your control. Take hostages. The problem is that you're supposed to be liberating these areas, and it won't do much for your PR if everyone sees you keeping terrified civilians locked up as a human shield. The news will call you a terrorist no matter what, but that doesn't mean you actually have to be one.

And an island? Dude, if you really want to kill yourself just use a bullet. It's cheaper. The ONLY difference between using a building or a private island as your rebel base is that when the government inevitably finds out, they won't have to worry about collateral damage or setting up a perimeter. They'll just bomb your little island back into the sea and call it a police action.


No, a rebellion in an industrialized nation can't be fought like the one in Libya. The rebels need to be fragmented and decentralized, or else a strike on their leadership will make the whole movement unravel. Any kind of spokesmen or tacticians need to stay constantly on the move, one step ahead of the police, and they need to understand that most of their communication will be monitored. And instead of setting up established rebel facilities (hospitals, barracks, arsenals, etc.), the rebels need to insinuate themselves among the civilian population and win sympathizers who can provide these services. Rebels should participate in public service, donate money to rebuilding efforts after battles and attacks, distribute free literature to underprivileged areas and offer shelter to citizens caught up in the government backlash, regardless of their political views. Create an "us vs. them" mentally with the people and rebels together against the government. This has a twofold purpose of getting valuable goods and services from the civilian population, and making sure that the rebels don't appear to be stepping in and "taking over" the area.

I think Buenaventura Durruti is a pretty cool guy. eh kills fascists and doesnt afraid of ruins.
The quickest way to kill a revolution is to wait for it.
03-10-2011 07:30 AM
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Absnt Offline
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Post: #4
Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Rebelnerd Wrote:Text.

I'm not talking about armed assaults on the government, although if I were I'd completely agree with you... I'm talking about protests, civil disobedience, and generally just living with as little restrictions as possible. The government won't, and haven't used that much force for trivial things like bypassing internet regulations, protesting, avoiding the government or anything else. Although I agree that private ships and planes wouldn't work... Private landing strips probably would though. As long as you don't do anything stupid with them that would give the government a reason to shut it down.

HoS Wrote:Text.

Yeah, except we live in a world dominated by oppresive governments. We can't just declare our freedom from government horseshit and be done with it, we have to work towards it.

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03-10-2011 09:08 AM
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Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Absentinsomniac Wrote:I'm not talking about armed assaults on the government, although if I were I'd completely agree with you... I'm talking about protests, civil disobedience, and generally just living with as little restrictions as possible. The government won't, and haven't used that much force for trivial things like bypassing internet regulations, protesting, avoiding the government or anything else. Although I agree that private ships and planes wouldn't work... Private landing strips probably would though. As long as you don't do anything stupid with them that would give the government a reason to shut it down.
Yeah, but then what? What's the final goal here? After we build up this big, nation-spanning subversive infrastructure, do we just sit there and let it gather dust? When any rebellion grows, nonviolent or not, eventually it reaches critical mass and hits a point where it poses a tangible threat to the existing regime. At that point, the existing regime pushes back, hard, for the sake of its own survival. And all those liberated towns and free airstrips might as well be painted with big red bullseyes.

Look at Ruby Ridge. I'm not sympathizing with those Neo-Nazi fucktards and I'm not saying that it was wrong for the Feds to intervene, since there were little kids being kept up there by their psychotic parents. But it illustrates how strongly the government will respond when someone tries to just "break away." Once you stop paying taxes and following the laws, it doesn't matter whether you're hurting someone or not; they'll put a stop to it. And if this rebel infrastructure isn't breaking any laws, then what exactly is the point of it?

I think Buenaventura Durruti is a pretty cool guy. eh kills fascists and doesnt afraid of ruins.
The quickest way to kill a revolution is to wait for it.
03-10-2011 10:17 AM
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Absnt Offline
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Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Well, the main idea of doing it would be to increase our freedom and our ability to do what we want. Although, the way I figure it you're probably right. It's probably not worth it, and if it came down to fighting, the infrastructure would be a huge target.

It'd be better to develop what is needed for protests and what not when we're actually ready to do one.

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03-10-2011 12:38 PM
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Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Supposedly there's some kind of anti-government group in a place called keane, new hampshire. People just move there. So their efforts can be concentrated and hopefully spread outward. I don't know that much about it.

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03-10-2011 12:59 PM
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Absnt Offline
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Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Took me for fucking ever to find this shit. http://www.wmur.com/r/26937744/detail.html

Apparently there's a group called "free keene". Seems pretty cool. There's also a town somewhere in the U.K, and other's like it were police are generally looked down on and reporters are kept out. Most of the people in the area are anarchists, or support the anarchists. I can't find any sources for that one though. Shit's cool.

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03-10-2011 01:21 PM
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Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Are they anarchists or libertarians? Because libertarians are always trying to steal our name.

I think Buenaventura Durruti is a pretty cool guy. eh kills fascists and doesnt afraid of ruins.
The quickest way to kill a revolution is to wait for it.
03-10-2011 02:38 PM
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Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Rebelnerd Wrote:Are they anarchists or libertarians? Because libertarians are always trying to steal our name.
They're the same thing, unless you're talking about party-archy.

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03-10-2011 02:42 PM
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Absnt Offline
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Post: #11
Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Keene has libertarians, not sure about the U.K place. I can't find anything on it for some reason. Maybe I'm thinking of portland oregon and the coffee shop incident. Scratchchin

Not sure.

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03-10-2011 02:43 PM
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Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Absentinsomniac Wrote:Keene has libertarians
And I heard about it on complete liberty podcast which is done by anarchists. Voluntaryism = libertarianism = anarchism

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03-10-2011 02:45 PM
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Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Uh, no. Libertarians are capitalists. It has nothing to do with anarchy, they just want to hijack our symbols because a flag with a dollar sign looks retarded.

I think Buenaventura Durruti is a pretty cool guy. eh kills fascists and doesnt afraid of ruins.
The quickest way to kill a revolution is to wait for it.
03-11-2011 05:37 AM
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Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Rebelnerd Wrote:Uh, no. Libertarians are capitalists.
... So what the hell do you mean by anarchy? Anarchy means no rulers, but you apparently want to be a ruler, and take people's property away. You're not an anarchist.

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Die lewe is goed.
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03-11-2011 06:17 AM
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Post: #15
Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Prince Rilian Wrote:
Rebelnerd Wrote:Uh, no. Libertarians are capitalists.
... So what the hell do you mean by anarchy? Anarchy means no rulers, but you apparently want to be a ruler, and take people's property away. You're not an anarchist.

The most common definition of 'property owner' is a person who 'owns' something because he has a piece of paper that the government defines as legal proof of his ownership. Without government, this kind of document would be meaningless. Therefore, private property, at least in a legal sense, is incongruent with anarchism.

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03-11-2011 08:23 AM
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Prince Rilian Offline
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Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

TheCancer Wrote:at least in a legal sense
Of course in a legal "sense". Legal is idiocy. That's not what property is. Are you saying that if I have a bike and you have a TV and we trade, that i can just take the bike back and there's nothing immoral about that, because there's no gang to enforce it?

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Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Prince Rilian Wrote:
Rebelnerd Wrote:Uh, no. Libertarians are capitalists.
... So what the hell do you mean by anarchy? Anarchy means no rulers, but you apparently want to be a ruler, and take people's property away. You're not an anarchist.
You obviously don't know much about what anarchism actually means. Anarchism is a mixture of libertarianism and egalitarianism, as in, no government and no wealthy class. No hierarchies at all; political OR economic. I'm not pulling this out of my ass either. Look up anarchism and some of its notable figures (Bakunin, Kropotkin, Emma Goldman, etc.). They were all vehement anti-capitalists who liked the communist idea about tearing down the rich, but didn't trust the strong central government that the communists wanted. Anarchists don't want the government to take the rich man's excess capital away and distribute it among the people. They want the people to take that excess capital and distribute it among themselves.

Marxism saw the revolution in three stages: the proletariat rises up and overthrows the bourgeoisie, the Dictatorship of the Proletariat takes over the state and establishes a socialist society before withering away, and finally a stateless and classless society without any inequality or coercion. Anarchists like the first and third steps but we're not crazy about that second one. We'd rather just get rid of the state right off the bat so that we can build this utopia without the threat of some asshole like Stalin worming his way into a position of power.

Read your history. Whether you like it or not, anarchism and capitalism are incompatible. A rich class and a government are equally dangerous and libertarianism just shifts power from the state to the upper class and doesn't change shit for the common people. Believe whatever you want about capitalism but don't try to pervert good name of anarchism, a philosophy that has been kicking ass for the working class since the 1840s.

The classic four-quadrant chart of political extremes. Notice how "libertarians" and "anarchists" occupy two different points in space:
Hidden stuff:
[Image: map.bmp]

I think Buenaventura Durruti is a pretty cool guy. eh kills fascists and doesnt afraid of ruins.
The quickest way to kill a revolution is to wait for it.
03-11-2011 09:48 AM
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Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Prince Rilian Wrote:
TheCancer Wrote:at least in a legal sense
Of course in a legal "sense". Legal is idiocy. That's not what property is. Are you saying that if I have a bike and you have a TV and we trade, that i can just take the bike back and there's nothing immoral about that, because there's no gang to enforce it?

No.

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03-11-2011 10:14 AM
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Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Quote:A rich class and a government are equally dangerous and libertarianism just shifts power from the state to the upper class and doesn't change shit for the common people. Believe whatever you want about capitalism but don't try to pervert good name of anarchism, a philosophy that has been kicking ass for the working class since the 1840s.

Well said.

I do think that a lot of anarchists today tend to lean to heavy on leftist idealogy, however. Without government to issue money the concept of an 'upper class' is so radically redifined it may as well be not even considered as a possibility for the intents and purposes to which we know it in today's world.

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03-11-2011 10:20 AM
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Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

If there's no government, how will you enforce the egalitarianism?

Anarchy means no rulers. It doesn't mean anything else.

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03-11-2011 11:18 AM
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Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Also, if I built a house, you'd say that others can come in and use it without my permission and even destroy it?

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03-11-2011 11:23 AM
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Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Prince Rilian Wrote:If there's no government, how will you enforce the egalitarianism?
The people will prevent the accumulation of wealth just as they would prevent the accumulation of political power. It's exactly the same.

Quote:Anarchy means no rulers. It doesn't mean anything else.
No, you're completely wrong about that and here's why:

What is government? Government is a group of individuals within a society that hold legitimate power. That hold power. Government is not power in and of itself; an entity cannot posses something and be that same thing simultaneously. So it logically follows that power is something completely different, and government is just one place where power is often concentrated. You agree with this, right? It's just common sense.

From there, the next logical step is that power can be held by other entities besides the government, since power and government are separate things. So let's define power. Power, according to most commonly accepted definitions, is the ability to make other people do the things. Power is control over someone. Right? Okay, so if power is the ability to control someone, then the opposite of power is freedom. To be free of that control.

Alright, let's take a look at capitalism. The basic motives behind capitalism are equal opportunity and meritocracy, that is, everyone has an equal chance at success and those who work hardest accumulate the wealth. The truth behind that statement can be debated, but for the sake of argument I'll just leave it there. That still means that there is an upper class (those who have succeeded) and a lower class (those that haven't). This means that capitalism is a hierarchical system. No surprises there, after all, that hierarchy is something capitalists are proud of. But the problem is that in any hierarchy, the ones higher up have power over the ones below. They own the factories, the fields, the mines. They decide how much money to distribute to the workers based on their performance in the workplace. They can hire others to assist them and if necessary, fight for them. The upper class has power over the lower. See that? Power just emerged, and it didn't even require a government.

The ultimate goal of anarchism is freedom. So, anarchism is about destroying power. Since governments usually have plenty of power, and since anarchists do not believe in "legitimate" power, it's natural that anarchists and governments are enemies. But to ensure freedom, taking out the government is not enough. Power has to be eliminated. And this is where libertarians and anarchists diverge. Libertarians are content to destroy the government but anarchists take it a step further and go after power itself.



Logical Progression:

1. Government holds power, therefore...
2. Power is separate from government, which means...
3. Power can be held by other entities besides governments.

1. Capitalism always has rich and poor, therefore...
2. Capitalism is hierarchical, and...
3. In a hierarchy, there is power, so...
4. Capitalism involves power.

1. Anarchists want freedom, so...
2. Anarchists oppose power, so...
3. Anarchists oppose any entity with power, therefore...
4. Anarchists oppose capitalism.


Some political scientists like to paint philosophy as a struggle between "freedom" and "equality." I, along with anarchists in general, believe that to be a false choice. Because without equality there is economic hierarchy, which means power, and therefore no freedom. And without freedom, there is a political hierarchy, which means no equality. One can't exist without the other.

I think Buenaventura Durruti is a pretty cool guy. eh kills fascists and doesnt afraid of ruins.
The quickest way to kill a revolution is to wait for it.
03-11-2011 12:28 PM
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Absnt Offline
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Post: #23
Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Not to mention, many libertarians aren't for the eradication of the state, they are for the minimization of the state. The only problem I have with it, I share with rebelnerd. Being a libertarian involves being a hardcore capitalist.

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03-11-2011 12:48 PM
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Prince Rilian Offline
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Post: #24
Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Rebelnerd Wrote:
Prince Rilian Wrote:If there's no government, how will you enforce the egalitarianism?
The people will prevent the accumulation of wealth just as they would prevent the accumulation of political power. It's exactly the same.
In a free society, there's no government, so there's no political. But preventing someone from accumulating wealth is aggressing against them. So, you don't believe in the non-aggression principle?

Quote:
Quote:Anarchy means no rulers. It doesn't mean anything else.
No, you're completely wrong about that and here's why:

What is government? Government is a group of individuals within a society that hold legitimate power. That hold power. Government is not power in and of itself; an entity cannot posses something and be that same thing simultaneously. So it logically follows that power is something completely different, and government is just one place where power is often concentrated. You agree with this, right? It's just common sense.
No. A government is a group of people that grants itself the unique right to initiate violence. If people acquiesce because the group has guns, it's totalitarianism. If they acquiesce because they are brain-washed via the group's indoctrination camps to believe that it is legitimate and good, then it's a democracy or a republic.

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03-11-2011 02:38 PM
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Prince Rilian Offline
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Post: #25
Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Absentinsomniac Wrote:Not to mention, many libertarians aren't for the eradication of the state, they are for the minimization of the state.
Those are not really libertarians. They are sometimes called "party-archs" as a term of derision. They have libertarian ideals but think the best route is to "work within the system". Or some of them are Objectivists or some shit. But I'm not associated with any political anything ever. I'm not that kind of libertarian, and the political party stole the name from true libertarians, who only love freedom and abhore all violence.
Quote:The only problem I have with it, I share with rebelnerd. Being a libertarian involves being a hardcore capitalist.
.. so, does capitalism mean the same thing as the free market? As in, no government intervention in the trades and contracts between individuals? Because if you're against the free market, that means you want to aggress against people and force them to do business a certain way, which means you are not an anarchist but rather want to BE the government.

Life is good. Jeta është e mirë. Goingcrazy
Die lewe is goed.
Het leven is goed.

Zoidberg: What is it, already? What's the cause of your anger?
Leela: I guess I would have to say, I hate you!
03-11-2011 02:43 PM
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SuperiorDiplomat Offline
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Post: #26
Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Great Thread.
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03-11-2011 02:49 PM
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Rebelnerd Offline
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Post: #27
Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Prince Rilian Wrote:.. so, does capitalism mean the same thing as the free market? As in, no government intervention in the trades and contracts between individuals? Because if you're against the free market, that means you want to aggress against people and force them to do business a certain way, which means you are not an anarchist but rather want to BE the government.

*hits head against desk*

NO. Dude, this is very simple. Anarchists are not just opposed to the government; they are opposed to ANY KIND OF AUTHORITY. Rich people are a form of authority. If a person is doing business in a way that causes poverty and oppression, then yeah, I want the people to "aggress" them! How is that any different from stopping the government? They're just two groups of people who hold power over the population and neither of them has a right to do so. Look, there is going to be some aggression in a revolution. That's kinda the whole point of revolution. How else are we supposed to take down the state? What matters is who's being forced to do what. If a powerful man is being force to stop oppressing the people, THAT IS NOT OPPRESSION. It's liberation. Capitalism has a long history of obscene wealth gaps, exploitation of workers, violent strikebreaking, blacklisting, corruption and every kind of indignity you can imagine. It is NOT anarchism. I laid this out very clearly in my last post and you barely even acknowledged it. I don't care about your political views as long as you can defend them logically, but I can't stand it when people are so deliberately irrational about these things.

Maybe it will help if I add pictures:

THIS IS ANARCHY
[Image: 77694-004-97264D34.jpg]

THIS IS NOT ANARCHY
[Image: nike-sweatshops.jpg]



THIS IS ANARCHY
[Image: strike.jpg]

THIS IS NOT ANARCHY
[Image: global-income-dist1.gif]


THIS IS ANARCHY
[Image: EmmaGoldman.jpg]

THIS IS NOT ANARCHY
[Image: uewb_05_img0310.jpg]

I think Buenaventura Durruti is a pretty cool guy. eh kills fascists and doesnt afraid of ruins.
The quickest way to kill a revolution is to wait for it.
03-11-2011 04:04 PM
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HeartofShadows Offline
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Post: #28
Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Thank you.

Bout time somebody put rillian down.

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03-11-2011 04:14 PM
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Prince Rilian Offline
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Post: #29
Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

Rebelnerd Wrote:
Prince Rilian Wrote:.. so, does capitalism mean the same thing as the free market? As in, no government intervention in the trades and contracts between individuals? Because if you're against the free market, that means you want to aggress against people and force them to do business a certain way, which means you are not an anarchist but rather want to BE the government.

*hits head against desk*

NO. Dude, this is very simple. Anarchists are not just opposed to the government; they are opposed to ANY KIND OF AUTHORITY. Rich people are a form of authority. If a person is doing business in a way that causes poverty and oppression, then yeah, I want the people to "aggress" them!
OK, so you're saying it's self-defense.

Life is good. Jeta është e mirë. Goingcrazy
Die lewe is goed.
Het leven is goed.

Zoidberg: What is it, already? What's the cause of your anger?
Leela: I guess I would have to say, I hate you!
03-11-2011 04:30 PM
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Prince Rilian Offline
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Post: #30
Re: Creating a rebel infrastructure.

HeartofShadows Wrote:Thank you.

Bout time somebody put rillian down.
Who?

Life is good. Jeta është e mirë. Goingcrazy
Die lewe is goed.
Het leven is goed.

Zoidberg: What is it, already? What's the cause of your anger?
Leela: I guess I would have to say, I hate you!
03-11-2011 04:30 PM
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