Stop doing painful things

[Will]

I'm having trouble resolving this.

Apparently, some people need to exercise to the point of pain in order to be healthy. Should we stop doing things when they become painful? Should these people keep exercising?

Some ideas

• We may do things that are painful only if we really want to do them in order to achieve the result. If we want to go to college, get a good job, &c., we go to school. This actually works out better than I'd thought because we don't actually think school is so helpful, but it would mean we have to rework the fundamental idea that we shouldn't be in school just because we don't like it.
• Maybe we should only not be forced to do things that are painful. This explanation isn't complete enough.
• Exercise to the point of pain may not really be necessary to being healthy if we didn't do all sorts of other unhealthy unhealthy things, like not moving at all in general, being forced to sit in chairs all day, eating badly and constantly being extremely stressed.[/list:u]

[SoulRiser]

Pain (physical and emotional) is there for a reason... it's to indicate that you should stop doing whatever's causing the pain. Like, if you continue doing it and ignore the pain, you can do damage to yourself. You can pull a muscle or something while exercising, or pass out from exhaustion, and with emotional stuff you could probably scar yourself mentally or something (though that sort of thing is harder to define and measure).

I've also heard that exercising is supposedly more effective if you carry on until it hurts and you can't anymore, and then take a break and do it again later.

Quote:Exercise to the point of pain may not really be necessary to being healthy if we didn't do all sorts of other unhealthy unhealthy things, like not moving at all in general, being forced to sit in chairs all day, eating badly and constantly being extremely stressed.

That's true.

[Darthmat]

Yes, but giving up on something because of slight pain is not good.

[SoulRiser]

Or even extreme pain, depending on how important it is.

[Will]

I knew that already; I'm just having trouble applying it to exercise.

[Guest]

Will Wrote:Should we stop doing things when they become painful?

Not necessarily. Here's a plan based on the doctrine of double effect which is a set of principles presumed to have been developed by Thomas Aquinas for those sticky situations where both good (e.g. health) and bad (e.g. pain) are caused by the same act.

1) The exercise should better yourself. (i.e. actually do something.)
2) You should intend for the healthiness not the pain.
3) The health benefits must outweigh the pain. This means don't kill yourself to get a perfect body.
4) The pain must not be the cause of the healthiness. (Which it isn't.)

A principle summarizing this would be: you should exercise to the point of pain (possibly further) only if it is really worthwhile doing.

SoulRiser Wrote:Pain (physical and emotional) is there for a reason... it's to indicate that you should stop doing whatever's causing the pain.

Not necessarily. Pain from cuts are caused by skin cells bursting which changes the pH level around pain receptors which is registered as pain. Extreme skin pain would mean an extreme cut, usually. But as you might know, it hurts like hell to get lemon juice or anything else acidic in cuts. There is no actual harm being done to you but it still hurts.

[Will]

I'm told that some people need to exercise to the point of pain to stay at a normal level of healthiness.

Maybe we just always had to exercise much more in order to gather food. If this is the case, even the pain wouldn't have stopped us from exercising. This answer doesn't feel complete either.

[Guest]

If some people need to, that's what it takes.

[Will]

Kirby Wrote:If some people need to, that's what it takes.

But that doesn't make sense to me; in all other cases, if doing something normal hurts, I suggest that you stop doing it. (Exceptional things are obviously exceptions to this suggestion.) If that's what it takes to be at a normal level of health, we should be able to explain why the suggestion is different for exercise.

[Zombie]

like you said, pain tells you when to stop...

If you twist your finger, it hurts, if you twist it further, it hurts more. Its a sign that you shouldn't twist your finger further. When your working out, you feel some fatigue, you get exhausted, but thats not a sign to stop. Fatigue is simply a sign that your pushing your body to its limits. When its pushed passed its limit it gives a signal to stop (i.e. pain). You stop, rest, let it heal, repeat. The limit gets further and further into the routine, meeting your requirements.

[Will]

Zombie Wrote:like you said, pain tells you when to stop...

If you twist your finger, it hurts, if you twist it further, it hurts more. Its a sign that you shouldn't twist your finger further. When your working out, you feel some fatigue, you get exhausted, but thats not a sign to stop. Fatigue is simply a sign that your pushing your body to its limits. When its pushed passed its limit it gives a signal to stop (i.e. pain). You stop, rest, let it heal, repeat. The limit gets further and further into the routine, meeting your requirements.

Yes, but I'm told that some people need to keep going when that limit is reached.

[fragile_esteem]

Will Wrote:I knew that already; I'm just having trouble applying it to exercise.

exercise is supposed to hurt, you are supposed to push yourself beyond limitations

[SoulRiser]

Not too far though... muscle only grows while you're resting, and if you damage your muscles by overdoing exercises, then it needs more time to heal as well.

[thewake]

fragile_esteem Wrote:

Will Wrote:I knew that already; I'm just having trouble applying it to exercise.

exercise is supposed to hurt, you are supposed to push yourself beyond limitations

The only problem I see with that is that if it is a limitation you can't do it. So how can you go beyond the limits of your body? Seriously, it's impossible.

I ran/jogged a mile in Gym class yesterday, now my legs hurt. I didn't stop to walk once. It is painful to go up stairs though, I should get out more an exercise. Lol.

[Will]

fragile_esteem Wrote:

Will Wrote:I knew that already; I'm just having trouble applying it to exercise.

exercise is supposed to hurt, you are supposed to push yourself beyond limitations

What if you don't want to push yourself beyond limitations—you just want to be at a normal level of health? This is the same question I've been asking throughout the thread.

[Guest]

Muscle growth is caused by ripping existing strands of muscle and rebuilding them. For some people it's bound to take more effort to get the same result.

Also, I don't think exercise is an exception to your rule, Will. Perhaps your rule is wrong.

[Will]

Kirby Wrote:Muscle growth is caused by ripping existing strands of muscle and rebuilding them. For some people it's bound to take more effort to get the same result.

Also, I don't think exercise is an exception to your rule, Will. Perhaps your rule is wrong.

If my rule is wrong, what's the point of pain?

[SoulRiser]

Maybe pain is just a suggestion that it might be a good idea to stop whatever you're doing now... but if you really think it's worthwhile, you can always override it. Like, if someone shoots you, and moving hurts more than sitting still... but you need to move to get out of the way of more bullets... then you move, even if it hurts like hell. But if you didn't feel any pain at all... you might not even notice you'd been shot.

[Will]

SoulRiser Wrote:Maybe pain is just a suggestion that it might be a good idea to stop whatever you're doing now... but if you really think it's worthwhile, you can always override it. Like, if someone shoots you, and moving hurts more than sitting still... but you need to move to get out of the way of more bullets... then you move, even if it hurts like hell. But if you didn't feel any pain at all... you might not even notice you'd been shot.

Yes, but that is a special situation. Some people have to exercise to the point of pain regularly in order to be normal.

[SoulRiser]

Define "normal".

[Will]

SoulRiser Wrote:Define "normal".

This is the main thing I was thinking too. A person was telling me that she had to exercise to avoid getting fat. If the problem isn't that we're doing all of these other unhealthy things that make us fat, maybe it's that she thinks that some safe weight is too fat.

I assumed her definition of "fat" was based on scientific research determining risk for disease as a function of fatness. I haven't reviewed any of this research, and even if this is the case, it's possible that there's some other thing causing both the fatness and the increased risk of disease, like all of the unhealthy things I've mentioned before, and that being fat isn't really a problem in itself.

I should read some of that literature, look at what risk factors for fatness she has and determine her fatness quantitatively.

[SoulRiser]

I doubt anyone can get to the level of fat that's considered dangerous for one's health without also eating waaay more than necessary... so maybe their definition of "fat" is something more like "not quite like the famous models"...

[Guest]

Pain is a feeling like any other. It has various causes and does not mean "you should stop" in all circumstances. Your body cannot tell the difference between getting an antibiotic injection and getting stabbed. The mechanisms for the pain are the exact same; the pain receptors are sensing a difference in pH, which says nothing about if you're actually being hurt. Pain is a defencive mechanism which isn't foolproof.

[Will]

Kirby Wrote:Pain is a feeling like any other. It has various causes and does not mean "you should stop" in all circumstances. Your body cannot tell the difference between getting an antibiotic injection and getting stabbed. The mechanisms for the pain are the exact same; the pain receptors are sensing a difference in pH, which says nothing about if you're actually being hurt. Pain is a defencive mechanism which isn't foolproof.

We evolved to feel pain for some reason. If necessary exercise is painful for an animal, I expect the animal to evolve such that necessary exercise will not be painful.

We haven't had time to evolve not to feel pain from an antibiotic injection.

[Guest]

Quote:If necessary exercise is painful for an animal, I expect the animal to evolve such that necessary exercise will not be painful.

It's only painful if you live a modern life or are unhealthy to begin with.

[Will]

Kirby Wrote:

Quote:If necessary exercise is painful for an animal, I expect the animal to evolve such that necessary exercise will not be painful.

It's only painful if you live a modern life or are unhealthy to begin with.

What is relevant about living a modern life that does not fall into being unhealthy to begin with?

If I understood your remark, it was my first answer to the problem I posed and is the main answer that people are suggesting here. I'm thinking I won't get any other suggestions in this thread, so I'm going to investigate this specific idea further.

[Eidolon]

I think pain generally means whatever is causing it should stop. But since I don't like to think that something like this applies to everything, I'm gonna say that there must be exceptions even though I can't think of any right now.

[guesswho9]

Pain is generally a part of life, I'il relate to the Buddhist first noble truth here, "Life is suffering", Don't take it too literate but if you exercised and never pushed yourself eventually, You'il ever ever really gain any progression in it, You need to push yourself every now and then; even if there is some pain in order to be able to achieve some form of completeness or enjoyment.
Besides in top athletes its normally a sort of winning thing, They've got to do it to win there races but when they do win a race, They know its all worth while and they achieve some enjoyment out of winning naturally.
Then again, Some people may just like it for the sake of it

[cryptevah72]

it may not be the best thing, but i dont really care about pain, hell i'v had alot, in almost every way possible, but i m not letting that stop me from anything. im rather stupid about it sometimes, but its not like i have that much time in this world to worry about long lasting effects.

pain is your bodys natural way of saying that it doesnt like something, but it doesnt mean you should just stop something because you dont like it

[SleeperAwakes]

Wouldn't normal depend on the person?
For some it is hard to speak in front of people. For other people it is loosing relationships. No matter how hard how how far people go to avoid pain, we will somehow feel it.
Though with the matter of physical exercise, I don't think there is a normal. I mean, not many people actually exercise, and those who do exercise often and well. I think it depends on how strong you want to be and what you want to do. And you probably shouldn't be a couch potato for the rest of your life.
As far as my opinion goes, if it hurts don't do it anymore. But, if it is sore take a break for the day and then continue tomorrow. Being sore are your muscles growing stronger.