Military - does anybody need it?

[Ahab]

Theres no doubt a military is useful and its strength has helped contribute to the existence/nonexistence of the Incas, the British Empire, etc.

[thewake]

Useful as a tool for despots.
The Roman Empire was tyrannical, Incas too.
The current American government too. The world has continuously been dominated by tyranny, and a big factor is a large standing army.

[Alucard483]

in an ideal world no military would be possible. However as we all know this is not the case. Thus we have greed, corruption, decite, lies, parinoia, spying, double standards and just plain evil. Thus military is nessisary. There will always be somone out there looking for more and if one person is compleatly ungarded and they have somthing worht taking it is going to get taken. Survival of the fitest. Militia is not the answer either. Militias are notorious for being highly uneffective agaisnt well trined regulars. The only way a militia would work is if they fought in the highly unsportsman like tactics of guerrilla warfare. Even then the invaders take the country in a matter of days while the militia acts like a resistance. Military is absolutly nessisary. Get the fuck over it and accept the truth for wha it is. Debate solves nothing, it olny wasts time beating around the bush only to come back to the unwanted ugly truth.

[thewake]

A Militia can work if it is well regulated and trained. Most Militias haven't worked precisely because of that fact, but if they had a more army like training while keeping the core values of a Militia(i.e. a military force composed of ordinary citizens). You can still be ordinary with a good amount of training.
A regular standing army is what isn't needed, unless you want a tool for power just sitting there waiting to be used by idiot Presidents/Kings/Despots.

A Militia could work, it just needs to be done in a better(and different way) then regular Militias.

And what's wrong with guerrilla warfare? It is very effective. The Patriots used it in the American Revolution.
And being unsportsman doesn't matter in a war, war is life and death not football. Sun Tzu said himself: "All warfare is based on deception." That doesn't sound very sportsman does it?

[Alucard483]

Probably Weswammy Wrote:A Militia can work if it is well regulated and trained. Most Militias haven't worked precisely because of that fact, but if they had a more army like training while keeping the core values of a Militia(i.e. a military force composed of ordinary citizens).

What you just described is military, not militia

[Zstriker]

Militias don't really work once you introduce specialized weaponry. Can a town of people with a militia survive against a column of tanks with helicopter and marksman support?

[liq3]

Zstriker Wrote:Militias don't really work once you introduce specialized weaponry. Can a town of people with a militia survive against a column of tanks with helicopter and marksman support?

Quite possibly. A few people could be trained to use rocket launchers. To counter the tanks dig a trench. You have a town of people...I'm sure you have shovels. Then the infantry are left. Yeh the militia probably losses in that factor, on the small scale. That town might fall (after taking out quite a few soldiers) but that town is probably like 0.0001% of the militia. Soooooo....

[Zstriker]

I always wondered, why bother "charging" across a path into enemy territory taking many losses when armies have tactical weapons that can hit any point on earth with a 10 foot casualty-producing radius, and why have normal infantry? I'm sure more specialized roles would be more effective in most all situations. leaving some members untrained in specific areas doesn't really make sense from a tactical standpoint.

[thewake]

Alucard483 Wrote:

Probably Weswammy Wrote:A Militia can work if it is well regulated and trained. Most Militias haven't worked precisely because of that fact, but if they had a more army like training while keeping the core values of a Militia(i.e. a military force composed of ordinary citizens).

What you just described is military, not militia

How so? How would intensive training once a week or maybe biweekly at the "Town Training Grounds" and then going back to being a barber/construction worker/etc. be any different from a Militia?

[Alucard483]

Another reason Militias are impractical is that every person is living somwhere else. Mobilization of such a scattared force would be nearly immpossible.

Zstriker Wrote:Militias don't really work once you introduce specialized weaponry. Can a town of people with a militia survive against a column of tanks with helicopter and marksman support?

Very good point, and no. They are effective almost exclusivly against infantry.

Liq Wrote:]To counter the tanks dig a trench.

LOL, that might have worked in WWII but now it would take a mine field or anti armor weapons to stop an armored column. To make a ditch work to stop a tank you would need a vertical drop of at least ten feet followed by a vertical rise of ten feet spaced close enought together that a tank cant roll right across it but once down cant get back up. This ditch would also have to be out of firing range of town to prevent them from just laying wast from across the ditch. Meaning that this ditch would have to be a few miles from the town and encircle the entire thing. And that would only work until they brought in a mobile bridge.

Z Wrote:helicopter support

Shoulder fired heat seeking missiles can take care of fast attack choppers. If they have planes and all that then you need people trained and on duty 24/7 to keep jets away as well as the heavy hitters like AC-130H gunships.

Z Wrote:Sniper support

Yet again fucked on all fronts unless you are going to put every single person in a tank. Snipers are the ghosts of the battle fields.

Lets just assume that said militia personal get ready in time, dig the trench of said specifications, have anti air precautions, have mined the surrounding fields and the rest of the lot. Then what? The opposing force moves in tactical recon and sniper teams to watch and 'take notes.' More forces arrive, artillary gets set up and said teams call out targets and the town is gone in a matter of hours.

Wess Wrote:How so? How would intensive training once a week or maybe biweekly at the "Town Training Grounds" and then going back to being a barber/construction worker/etc. be any different from a Militia?

How is that diffrent than the people who serve then go back to being painters, doctors, electricians and the lot? Oh wait there isnt aside from the time served.

[The Desert Fox]

Everyone said everything I already said on the matter, so... yeah. But anywho, I think militaries shouldn't be as serious and everything as they are, but I think we should keep a general force. Because someone is bound to form a secret team and fire nukes or something.

[liq3]

Lol I just realised something...Alucard, all the stuff you said...isn't that a little costly to capture the town?

[Alucard483]

No

[liq3]

Also, who says tho town won't have trained snipers?

[Alucard483]

The point remains that militia fails in moderday tech

[liq3]

Alucard483 Wrote:The point remains that militia fails in moderday tech

Assuming even half the US population could 'join' a militia, a US militia would be 150x larger then the current US standing army. And, why that is good in a picture.

Hidden stuff:

Also, have you ever read "Tomorrow When The War Began"? It's a fiction(?) book about a bunch of kids using guerrilla tactics. I have no idea why it wouldn't be possible to teach ppl that kind of stuff. And teach EVERYONE, not just 150th of the population.

[Alucard483]

You just disproved you ENTIRE argument. The Finish military fucking owned the Russians

[liq3]

How? 4x isn't 150x. Also, the Russian's had 200x as many tanks, and 30x as many aircraft, and LOST. That proves that vehicles do not decide a battle, as you were trying to say.

Also, do you have any idea how resourceful people can be? Guerrilla warfare my friend. It's why the US is getting owned in Iraq.

[Bob Dole]

Actually, not so much anymore. Guerrilla warfare depends absolutely on popular support. They don't have that, they are Grade A fucked.

[Alucard483]

liq3 Wrote:How? 4x isn't 150x. Also, the Russian's had 200x as many tanks, and 30x as many aircraft, and LOST. That proves that vehicles do not decide a battle, as you were trying to say.

Also, do you have any idea how resourceful people can be? Guerrilla warfare my friend. It's why the US is getting owned in Iraq.

All the tech in the world can not help an inexperianced army. It is the TRAINING that they recive that makes them elite. Guerrilla warfare is effective against infantry and soft targets.

liq3 Wrote:I have no idea why it wouldn't be possible to teach ppl that kind of stuff. And teach EVERYONE, not just 150th of the population.

Money, you cant do anything without it, ever heard of it? The cost of training an nation would be astrinomical. Besides it is more efficient to train 5 guys to the highest capacity and provide them with the best possible than to train 500 amatures and provide them with shit.

Honestly, lets do some RPing. You have some militia with whatever deffensive tech you want to defend your town. Ill attack. You can keep all you defenses a secret. Its over when you surrender to keep your citizens alive or I kill everyone there. Be honest when I ask questions as well or we wont get good results. Think of all your defenses now and tell me when you are ready to start.

[liq3]

No. RP is not real. It's impossible to even guess the kind of problems that'd arise for both sides in a fight.

I'm assuming everyone in the town can follow orders and that they know how to use a pistol. That's the kind of town that'd be a militia. It doesn't take long to learn to use a pistol decently, and at close range it's going to take down any army man if they get a shot off. The tanks can be stopped many ways. Trenches are the easiest. Home made mines work too. I bet if a war was going on, the town might have tried to get some explosives. Also, what about the possibility of the tank being boarded? What the fuck and they gonna do if 5 guys jump onto the tank? Shoot themselves? >.<

P.S. There's no point arguing this. It's never going to happen, not in the near future, and the only way we'd know if it works, is if a SKILLED militia went up against some army people. Also, don't forget people defending have like a 3x advantage by simply being the defenders.

[Alucard483]

We dont need a test, Its called somalia.