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Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
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arthasmenethil Offline
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Post: #61
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

youvebeenthunderstruck Wrote:"an idea with no proof is called an opinion, and it DOES NOT BELONG IN SCHOOL!!!!!"

Holy fuck, rebel. You're completely wrong. Opinions absolutely belong in school.

I think he means that opinions should not be taught in school, not that they don't belong at all.

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04-15-2008 06:07 AM
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youvebeenthunderstruck Offline
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Post: #62
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

Of course they should, unless they treat it as the only thing.

<lordpie> Life sucks so much right now. It seems I'm spending all of it doing math.
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04-15-2008 06:19 AM
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Ahab Offline
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Post: #63
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

unschooling for life when it comes to religious convictions.

"If you think you know what the hell is going on, you're probably full of shit." - Robert Anton Wilson
04-15-2008 07:40 AM
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youvebeenthunderstruck Offline
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Post: #64
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

Maybe being religious, but both evolution and creationism have the right to be taught in school.

<lordpie> Life sucks so much right now. It seems I'm spending all of it doing math.
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04-15-2008 07:44 AM
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SoulRiser Offline
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Post: #65
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

School does not have the right to be taught in school.

"If you can, help others; if you cannot do that, at least do not harm them." - Dalai Lama
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"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination." - Albert Einstein
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04-15-2008 09:18 AM
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youvebeenthunderstruck Offline
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Post: #66
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

You're confusing me. :waah:

<lordpie> Life sucks so much right now. It seems I'm spending all of it doing math.
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04-15-2008 09:42 AM
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SoulRiser Offline
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Post: #67
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

I'm confusing myself too Smile
Don't mind me.

"If you can, help others; if you cannot do that, at least do not harm them." - Dalai Lama
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"Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it." - André Paul Guillaume Gide
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination." - Albert Einstein
"I'm pretty sure there's a lot of beauty that can only be found in the mind of a lunatic." - TheCancer
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04-15-2008 09:52 AM
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rAnx Offline
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Post: #68
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

youvebeenthunderstruck Wrote:Maybe being religious, but both evolution and creationism have the right to be taught in school.
However, the big issue isn't really whether creationism should or shouldn't be taught in school, it's whether it should be taught as an alternative to evolution in a science class (which I personally believe shouldn't happen). I doubt that many people would be offended if it was taught in a theological or historical context. I myself am currently learning about the Incan Creation Myth, albeit in Spanish class. Creationism has its place in school; it has had an undeniably large cultural influence, both historically in going into the future, and to ignore the fact that it exists would be ignorant. However, to include it within biology would be, at best, a very questionable academic choice.

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04-15-2008 10:43 AM
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youvebeenthunderstruck Offline
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Post: #69
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

I don't think so, because it depends on a person's religious beliefs. Just make sure that you cover both of them equally, not favoring one over the other.

<lordpie> Life sucks so much right now. It seems I'm spending all of it doing math.
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04-15-2008 10:50 AM
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rAnx Offline
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Post: #70
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

youvebeenthunderstruck Wrote:I don't think so, because it depends on a person's religious beliefs. Just make sure that you cover both of them equally, not favoring one over the other.
That, however, creates three problems. First, it implies that evolution is a religious point of view. It is not. Second, it implies that creationism has scientific veracity. It does not. And third, you would then have to teach, in a scientific context the creation beliefs of the following religions: Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism, Sikhism, Wicca, and various African and Native American Tribal beliefs, due to the restrictions placed on the Government preventing them from endorsing any single religion.

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04-15-2008 11:30 AM
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youvebeenthunderstruck Offline
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Post: #71
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

All religions should be presented equally, it's still not fair to only teach one or the other while ignoring the counterpart.

<lordpie> Life sucks so much right now. It seems I'm spending all of it doing math.
<Rosti_LFC> You are "Math Boy"
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04-15-2008 11:38 AM
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rAnx Offline
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Post: #72
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

youvebeenthunderstruck Wrote:All religions should be presented equally, it's still not fair to only teach one or the other while ignoring the counterpart.
But that's just the thing. Evolution is not a religious belief. Therefore there should be no religious counterpart taught in science class.

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04-15-2008 11:41 AM
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youvebeenthunderstruck Offline
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Post: #73
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

Literally, you're right, if you want to arbitrarily say this is science, this is not, that's fine, but nevertheless, they should at least be mentioned. I don't see the harm in simply OFFERING the alternative.

<lordpie> Life sucks so much right now. It seems I'm spending all of it doing math.
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04-15-2008 11:43 AM
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Rebelnerd Offline
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Post: #74
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

what i meant is that opinions should not be taught as fact in school, because it leads to abuse of power and manipulation of the students. the only way to be as objective as possible is to teach whatever theory has the most proof. intelligent design has none, evolution has some. could evolution be wrong? of course. maybe God did create everything. but we should teach whatever has the best evidence to back it up.

I think Buenaventura Durruti is a pretty cool guy. eh kills fascists and doesnt afraid of ruins.
The quickest way to kill a revolution is to wait for it.
04-15-2008 11:43 AM
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youvebeenthunderstruck Offline
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Post: #75
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

"the only way to be as objective as possible is to teach whatever theory has the most proof."

But again, that's still biased to one side.

<lordpie> Life sucks so much right now. It seems I'm spending all of it doing math.
<Rosti_LFC> You are "Math Boy"
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04-15-2008 11:43 AM
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rAnx Offline
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Post: #76
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

youvebeenthunderstruck Wrote:Literally, you're right, if you want to arbitrarily say this is science, this is not, that's fine, but nevertheless, they should at least be mentioned. I don't see the harm in simply OFFERING the alternative.
There's nothing arbitrary about it. Scientific evidence is taken from observations from our environment, and it is these observations that provide the basis for what we know can be true. Evolution is based on such observations as fossil evidence, the geological time scale, radiometric dating, lab testing and even direct observation. Creationism, on the other hand, lacks any of the aforementioned qualities. Aside from being unobservable, untestable, and unsubstantiated, it breaks one of the main tenants of science, wherein the conclusion must be based on observations. Creationism, on the other hand, takes its conclusion and attempts to find and interpret evidence for it, which is an absolute faux pas to any scientist.

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04-15-2008 12:07 PM
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youvebeenthunderstruck Offline
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Post: #77
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

Your opinion has a lot of merit, but I still think that if you ignore creationism entirely, that's not right; maybe you don't have to teach it, but at least mention it.

<lordpie> Life sucks so much right now. It seems I'm spending all of it doing math.
<Rosti_LFC> You are "Math Boy"
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04-15-2008 12:11 PM
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rAnx Offline
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Post: #78
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

youvebeenthunderstruck Wrote:Your opinion has a lot of merit, but I still think that if you ignore creationism entirely, that's not right; maybe you don't have to teach it, but at least mention it.
But what would be the point of mentioning it in a science class if it's not science? The material would be essentially irrelevant in such a setting.

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04-15-2008 12:15 PM
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youvebeenthunderstruck Offline
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Post: #79
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

You're right.

<lordpie> Life sucks so much right now. It seems I'm spending all of it doing math.
<Rosti_LFC> You are "Math Boy"
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04-15-2008 12:17 PM
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Darthmat Offline
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Post: #80
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

Religion can not be taught as fact, at least not in school.

But banning it from a classroom is just as bad as banning Evolution. (And that is really damn bad for anyone with even slight intelligence who has to go through eight years of that, believe me.)

I highly suggest Mobb Deep's albums The Infamous and Hell on Earth, if you have not listened to it yet.
04-15-2008 09:17 PM
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Rebelnerd Offline
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Post: #81
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

things like intelligent design and creationism should be offered in either religion a or philosophy class. but if there's no proof, then it's simply not science and shouldn't be in science class. evolution and creationism aren't the only two theories about how species develop. if we allow one in that has no scientific backup, it sets a precedent that could turn "science" education into a mashup of opinions, groundless theories, and meaningless speculation just for the sake of not offending anybody.

I think Buenaventura Durruti is a pretty cool guy. eh kills fascists and doesnt afraid of ruins.
The quickest way to kill a revolution is to wait for it.
04-15-2008 11:35 PM
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SoulRiser Offline
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Post: #82
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

Blarrrrrr.

Since when is creationism an alternative to evolution? They can fit together perfectly fine. Someone started the "big bang" (which, afaik, scientists haven't explained yet)... and then things evolved from there. There ya go. Nobody can prove that someone started it, so they can just suggest it as a theory. It's not like they never do that, do they? Then again, they don't tend to mention much of anything that isn't going to be on a test.

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"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination." - Albert Einstein
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04-16-2008 05:51 AM
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Cilaos Offline
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Post: #83
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

I'm not big on the big bang theory, it just doesn't sound....plausible to me.
I don't really have a theory on how the universe started but I think the idea of saying a god did it just over complicates things if you actually think about it.
I mean, where did a highly advanced being like a god come from, if there has to be a creator then someone had to make him and thus is more advanced and better than god and then someone to make that guy and so on which means it goes on forever or that...that....this theory hurts my brain because of it's all it's impossibilities.
If you think it's possible for something to be eternal *always has and always will exist* then why do you even need a god in there at all when the universe could have just always existed.
I'm pretty sure there's something I forgot to mention here but I obviously forgot to mention it.

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04-16-2008 06:26 AM
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Liquid Offline
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Post: #84
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

Neither creationism or evolution should be taught in a "Science" class. They should *both* be taught in Philosophical classes like Atomic Theory / Round Earth / the Laws of Friction were taught before they were proved.

I don't believe the wacky evolutionist scientists but I don't believe the wacky creationist scientists either. Neither of them have a leg to stand on, evolutionists started out as a quasi-racist anti-Christian hypotheses and the creationists were the logical "equal and opposite reaction" to it. They're both wack but some good might come form it before something eventually replaces evolution and creates a debate with it's "equal and opposite reaction"

I could go on all day giving examples why I think evolution is bunk, but I doubt I could sway very many here and the creationists aren't exactly helping the situation either. Every thing the evolutionists and creationists look at is described from the evolutionist/creationist view of the world and that skews the picture and hides the facts. For every topic there is the evolutionist-mainstream take on it and the creationist alternative take on it... both sides twist the facts... what the average person gets is not the Facts but instead evolutionist/creationist dogma.

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04-16-2008 06:28 AM
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Darthmat Offline
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Post: #85
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

Something made earth. What made that something? What made that something?

I can only think that something timeless could make any sense out of this.

I highly suggest Mobb Deep's albums The Infamous and Hell on Earth, if you have not listened to it yet.
04-16-2008 07:53 AM
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Rebelnerd Offline
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Post: #86
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

i don't see where all this doubt about evolution comes from. if you really look at it, there's some pretty damn good evidence supporting it. and where the hell did this "some things are too complex for nature to make, it must have been God" thing come from? complexity is a relative term. are people really so arrogant that they think their ideas of "complex" and "simple" are the universal standard? they say a human eye is too intricate for nature to make. well how the hell would they know? are they Gods? how else would they know when something is so complicated that it needs God to step in and finish the job? this is the problem i have with intelligent design; it's all based on opinions an relative standards and has no real objective evidence.

I think Buenaventura Durruti is a pretty cool guy. eh kills fascists and doesnt afraid of ruins.
The quickest way to kill a revolution is to wait for it.
04-16-2008 10:43 AM
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Darthmat Offline
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Post: #87
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

Sometimes, belief can be far stronger then proof. And if it is not hurting anyone except themselves, and they don't shove it down their child's throat, I think it's alright.

I highly suggest Mobb Deep's albums The Infamous and Hell on Earth, if you have not listened to it yet.
04-16-2008 11:02 AM
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rAnx Offline
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Post: #88
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

Liquid, having piqued my curiosity so much, would you care to elaborate on what you believe to be the problems with evolution.

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04-16-2008 12:41 PM
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i-am-the-liquor Offline
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Post: #89
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

ben stein is a fucking dumbass,somebody should shoot him for spreading the bogous arguments that he showed....maby i will*loads rifle*

I dont mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am,so thats how it comes out.- bill hicks
04-19-2008 03:57 AM
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thewake Offline
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Post: #90
Re: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

Creationism is Science,
You know why? Because if you take religion out of the picture(Judaism, Christianity, Pastafarianism, etc.) it's just an idea. All scientific theories started as ideas, maybe based on something out in the world, but ideas nonetheless. A religion could just as well claim evolution as it's supreme doctrine like many religions claim creationism.
I don't see how you can call creationism itself religion.
All there needs to be is a theory to be made about creationism, and that theory isn't Intelligent Design.
therenegadeoffunk Wrote:ben stein is a fucking dumbass,somebody should shoot him for spreading the bogous arguments that he showed....maby i will*loads rifle*
Ben Stein is awesome, maybe a little cooky, but he makes eyedrops fun.

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04-19-2008 07:55 AM
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