'God' and life.

[CrayolaColours]

I say we make our own bible, bury it, then I'll bet in a thousand years, someone picks it up, and there you have Schoolsurvianity!

[AWOL]

Pronounce what you just wrote .

[CrayolaColours]

I can actually. What now?

[AWOL]

'School - Serve - Ee - An - It - Ee'

[AWOL]

I think so.

[Liquid]

Wow, that's enlightening, why didn't I realize that before? You've convinced me!

1: I'll worship the moon god, the fire god, the fish god, the tree god, the death god, and the rock god.
2: I'll start bowing down to statues, and pray to the Statue of Liberty six times a day.
3: I will say "God" every time I need to tie my shoes, and I'll tell people that God wants them to donate money to me.
4: I will work non stop, If I run a company I won't give anyone days off
5: I'll call my parents on the phone everyday and tell them they suck.
6: I'll start killing people, maybe I'll start a head collection.
7: I'll start sleeping with married women and ruin as many marriages as possible. I'll do it with every girl I see, so what if it gives them kids? Rape is also on the menu here.
8: Every time I visit someone's house I'll stuff my pockets. If I walk past a house as see a laptop inside, I'll grab it and take it home.
9: When someone is looking for a bathroom I'll point him in the other direction. If my friend uses me as a job reference I'll tell the business that my friend just got out of a mental asylum and I'm so glad he's back. I'll also run for Congress.
10: I will constantly be jealous of what my friend has, because it is so good for my ego. Also I don't just want something like what my friend has, no I want the exact same one that he physically owns.

Follow these 10 ten steps and you will fulfill your true potential. Isn't this true freedom? Wouldn't the whole world be a better place if everyone followed this!

[AWOL]

Linki: That's what I meant by murder, and if I truly loved someone then I wouldn't commit adultery. Hope that helps

Liquid: You're taking my words out of context, and the Decalogue's words out of context, in the most extreme way possible. Read my fucking post before you rant about what I have to say.

[Liquid]

AWOL Wrote:Liquid: You're taking my words out of context, and the Decalogue's words out of context, in the most extreme way possible. Read my fucking post before you rant about what I have to say.

I got the idea from looking at your post, but I didn't mean for it to be offensive.

I simply tried to state the opposite of the commandments

[AWOL]

Ah, my mistake then.

[classclown]

Liquid Wrote:

AWOL Wrote:Liquid: You're taking my words out of context, and the Decalogue's words out of context, in the most extreme way possible. Read my fucking post before you rant about what I have to say.

I got the idea from looking at your post, but I didn't mean for it to be offensive.

I simply tried to state the opposite of the commandments

first, if someone kills another person there are usually inclined for some reason. secound, the whole sex thing. he just means why the fuck do you need marrige. i mean if your brain washed to think that if you stick your dick in something before you marry it you get set on fire forever after you die. i supose. but theres nothing wrong with it.

[Liquid]

AWOL Wrote:Ah, my mistake then.

More mine though, it does kinda look like it's directed at you, sorry about that.

[AWOL]

It's perfectly fine, we were both assholes, although at what I don't know .

[AWOL]

Marriage: It may have worked in the past, but nowadays it's far too legal.

[Reptorian]

AWOL Wrote:Read into it. Atheists have been among and the majority of the smartest people in the world, and you will often find them to be non-violent because they see no point in killing.

This is unprovable due to the fact that it is stereotypical error. The better hypothesis would be that atheist are more likely to achieve higher scores on math, reading, science, art, puzzle solving, spatial,and memory tests while they are less likely to kill than the religious. There's plenty of evidence that there are some atheists who happen to kill people. There's plenty of evidence that religious people can be extremely intelligence and highly skilled in their area of interest other than religion. You just gotta stop being in denial and start opening up your own mind like you did when you question the school system and your belief.

[spookycloud]

*will read rest of thread later... hope I haven't repeated something that's already been said*

Ethics can exist without religion, but back then man was quite primitive and scare tactics probably would've been the only way to maintain order. I'd love to believe in "pure" altruism, but fear could be root of compassion... we must be afraid of suffering/punishment in order to empathise with others' suffering and either work for a "god given reward" or independent salvation.
Superstitions fade as man became more self-conscious, but self-consciousness should also take into consideration the limitations of our scientific methods. People should be careful when projecting their ideals and fears onto reality but then again you shouldn't take the limits of your vision for the limits of the cosmos.

I'm a weak a/ignostic regarding truth with beliefs leaning towards Buddhism, since it's kinda contradictory for an agnostic to say "truth is absolutely unknowable." If I had to guess what god is.. probably something along the lines of pantheism/panentheism but that speculation is still vague to me. The universe is so vast, so why can't aliens or deities exist? They may not necessarily be supernatural either, just existing on a different quantum frequency, although we needn't be dependent on their existence to lead fulfilling lives.
I like the synthesis between quantum physics and spirituality, where science uses the third person investigative method and meditation uses the first person investigative method as a means to empirical evaluation. See: by "How science and spirituality can serve our world" by the Dalai Lama.

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” -Einstein
"If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties." -Francis Bacon
I appreciate it when people can balance open mindedness with rationality.

You can come to change and subside certain fears and ideals because the "reality" they're based on isn't as immutable as some may think. It's interesting how no matter how "real" your beliefs seem, they're just concepts and ideas; an interpretation of reality that's all in your head.

It's interesting how you can't really choose your beliefs or entirely erase your upbringing no matter how comforting it would be to believe in god or heaven. What would I choose to believe if I were detached from my biases? A good way to maximise a neutral position would be to teach children ethics without religion then introduce the accompanying philosophies and frameworks when they're old enough to understand.

i get why some atheists feel strongly though since it is a massive gray area- when does faith become blind faith? But unless their religious beliefs are really politically invasive and unreasonable (ahem, fundamentalists) I'm pretty live and let live about it cause the religious politics of spirituality don't always get in the way of using whatever mental placebos that will motivate us towards maximising love and happiness. All different means of attaining universal humane values should be considered, whether it be to honour god, humanity, or both.

I don't think it's weak to need something to believe in because everybody does to some extent, we just attribute hope and meaning/value to different experiences and ideas. What's the difference between needing jesus and needing a significant other to fill a desire to connect with something greater than oneself? Essentially they're still elements of the universe. And imagine yourself as a soldier crouching inside the trenches, you could violently lose your life anytime while fearing for the safety of your brethren. In such a circumstance even non spiritual/religious people might pray to god, begging for some miracle force greater than themselves to put them out of their misery. What is considered easy to endure for someone will be difficult for others. That should be respected with each individual's inner compass.

Fear might not be the only root of it- gratitude, belonging etc factors in too but what does any perspective do but reaffirm our personal needs and experiences? There may be a correlation between personality traits and religious belief, so I'm wary of invalidating possible motivating traits such as being security-conscious or relationship-oriented. Detached logical people have their justifications too, for example security is a lie which is easily sabotaged by power hungry hypocrisy and supernatural over-dependency. Security is also possible to attain through self-sufficiency and calming one's anxieties rather than resorting to constant prayer.

[spookycloud]

liq3 Wrote:Just because we don't know how something works, doesn't mean there isn't a perfectly logical explanation.

Absolute logical order is thus a metaphysical belief? What if there's a parallel universe where logic didn't exist.. now that would be jiggy. It would be cool if the afterlife could literally conform to your beliefs...whatever they may be.

[AWOL]

There would still be logic, it would just be entirely different to our logic. Everything in the world is logic. Hell, the world's just an gigantic computer.

[Lustang]

I do not believe in (a) God for the following reasons:

There are multiple religions. They all seem to copy each other. Christianity makes most sense with the least flaws (but NOT creationism), but they all are pretty much the exact same. I do not believe in the Christian god for the exact reasons that a Christian would choose not to believe in Zeus' existence.

The roots of religion. There is no trustworthy proof. The only proof given to me for God's existence are "The bible", "Jesus/Mohammed" and "Us".
- The bible: It's a collection of books, written roughly 2000 years ago in a primitive language. It proves nothing, I could have written a much prettier book.
- Jesus / Mohammed: Arguing against both Islam and Christ here, I disagree that there is any actual reliable proof of their existence. Jesus for example was only written about 50 years after his birth, that's some 20 years after his death (in the bible). The first times he was mentioned, a lot of vital facts were disregarded. Etc etc, reading this would be simpler: http://www.godlessgeeks.com/JesusExist.htm
- Us: Yes some people use our actual existence as proof of god. It has not occurred to them that we could have been created by something else.

The morals behind religion: Whilst I fully support the morals of Christ, it's used to control the masses through fear and greed.
Fear: If you do not do as we say, you shall burn in hell for all of eternity.
Greed: If you do as we say, you shall be granted a place in heaven which has everything you have ever wanted.

Illogical creation: I do not see why someone omnipotent would have a desire to create humans. Or care about them.

Irrational dependency of the human brain: Unfortunately the human brain needs answers. Has someone ever whispered something you didn't hear, and you nagged them until you found out what they said again (it was probably useless anyway, right)? Humans have used God to explain everything, thunder and lightning to earthquakes etc. We can not comprehend that we simply exist without purpose.


Sorry if any of the above has offended, these are the main points I feel. Please, prove me wrong; I want a God just as much as you all do.

[The Desert Fox]

Lustang Wrote:I do not believe in (a) God for the following reasons:

There are multiple religions. They all seem to copy each other. Christianity makes most sense with the least flaws (but NOT creationism), but they all are pretty much the exact same. I do not believe in the Christian god for the exact reasons that a Christian would choose not to believe in Zeus' existence.

The roots of religion. There is no trustworthy proof. The only proof given to me for God's existence are "The bible", "Jesus/Mohammed" and "Us".
- The bible: It's a collection of books, written roughly 2000 years ago in a primitive language. It proves nothing, I could have written a much prettier book.
- Jesus / Mohammed: Arguing against both Islam and Christ here, I disagree that there is any actual reliable proof of their existence. Jesus for example was only written about 50 years after his birth, that's some 20 years after his death (in the bible). The first times he was mentioned, a lot of vital facts were disregarded. Etc etc, reading this would be simpler: http://www.godlessgeeks.com/JesusExist.htm
- Us: Yes some people use our actual existence as proof of god. It has not occurred to them that we could have been created by something else.

The morals behind religion: Whilst I fully support the morals of Christ, it's used to control the masses through fear and greed.
Fear: If you do not do as we say, you shall burn in hell for all of eternity.
Greed: If you do as we say, you shall be granted a place in heaven which has everything you have ever wanted.

Illogical creation: I do not see why someone omnipotent would have a desire to create humans. Or care about them.

Irrational dependency of the human brain: Unfortunately the human brain needs answers. Has someone ever whispered something you didn't hear, and you nagged them until you found out what they said again (it was probably useless anyway, right)? Humans have used God to explain everything, thunder and lightning to earthquakes etc. We can not comprehend that we simply exist without purpose.

Cue Eff Tee.

[jose]

i am agnostic catholic but thinking about being just plain agnostic christian. no church. just a bible.

[jose]

Lustang Wrote:I do not believe in (a) God for the following reasons:

There are multiple religions. They all seem to copy each other. Christianity makes most sense with the least flaws (but NOT creationism), but they all are pretty much the exact same. I do not believe in the Christian god for the exact reasons that a Christian would choose not to believe in Zeus' existence.

The roots of religion. There is no trustworthy proof. The only proof given to me for God's existence are "The bible", "Jesus/Mohammed" and "Us".
- The bible: It's a collection of books, written roughly 2000 years ago in a primitive language. It proves nothing, I could have written a much prettier book.
- Jesus / Mohammed: Arguing against both Islam and Christ here, I disagree that there is any actual reliable proof of their existence. Jesus for example was only written about 50 years after his birth, that's some 20 years after his death (in the bible). The first times he was mentioned, a lot of vital facts were disregarded. Etc etc, reading this would be simpler: http://www.godlessgeeks.com/JesusExist.htm
- Us: Yes some people use our actual existence as proof of god. It has not occurred to them that we could have been created by something else.

The morals behind religion: Whilst I fully support the morals of Christ, it's used to control the masses through fear and greed.
Fear: If you do not do as we say, you shall burn in hell for all of eternity.
Greed: If you do as we say, you shall be granted a place in heaven which has everything you have ever wanted.

Illogical creation: I do not see why someone omnipotent would have a desire to create humans. Or care about them.

Irrational dependency of the human brain: Unfortunately the human brain needs answers. Has someone ever whispered something you didn't hear, and you nagged them until you found out what they said again (it was probably useless anyway, right)? Humans have used God to explain everything, thunder and lightning to earthquakes etc. We can not comprehend that we simply exist without purpose.


Sorry if any of the above has offended, these are the main points I feel. Please, prove me wrong; I want a God just as much as you all do.

i believe that man must have created god using the law of attraction. if you believe in something then that is real. this means all gods are real and no one except for satanists are going to hell. atheists will not be tortured they will just die and not begin another life. simple. the universe created us. we believed in god and we were positive about it. that gave birth to the being we call god. the universe is energy so it will never end. my mom taught me about the law of attraction and astrology when i was like 8 years old. when i turned 13 i began to learn numerology. its pretty interesting. the most important thing that i learned was that anything is possible with the power of your mind. yes i am kinda young to know this but its too interesting to just ignore.

[Nah]

SUP APATHY

[The Desert Fox]

Jonno Wrote:SUP ADBOT?

FIX'D

[AWOL]

Lol, people still believe in the Law of Attraction.

[LOON_ATTIC]

Ellis Wrote:

Jonno Wrote:SUP ADBOT

FIX'D

FIX'D

[AWOL]

Lunatic Wrote:

Ellis Wrote:

Jonno Wrote:SUP THE GAME

PLUS ONE

PLUS ONE

+1

[Liquid]

Lustang Wrote:I do not believe in (a) God for the following reasons:

There are multiple religions. They all seem to copy each other. Christianity makes most sense with the least flaws (but NOT creationism), but they all are pretty much the exact same. I do not believe in the Christian god for the exact reasons that a Christian would choose not to believe in Zeus' existence.

And what has Christianity ever copied? A couple holidays? Other religions are far more influenced by Christianity.

Lustang Wrote:The roots of religion. There is no trustworthy proof. The only proof given to me for God's existence are "The bible", "Jesus/Mohammed" and "Us".
- The bible: It's a collection of books, written roughly 2000 years ago in a primitive language. It proves nothing, I could have written a much prettier book.

Primitive language? There were plenty of languages in the ancient world that were farther advanced then modern English. Greek happens to be one of then.

The Bible wasn't written to be a pretty book, it is realistic. The Bible shows both the beautiful and the ugly side of humanity; is shows war, greed, lust, poverty, starvation, drunkenness, incest, rape, murder. In the Book of Revelation it appears as if the Earth will basically become an uninhabitable wasteland incapable of sustaining life. A "pretty book" is isn't.

Lustang Wrote:- Jesus / Mohammed: Arguing against both Islam and Christ here, I disagree that there is any actual reliable proof of their existence. Jesus for example was only written about 50 years after his birth, that's some 20 years after his death (in the bible). The first times he was mentioned, a lot of vital facts were disregarded. Etc etc,

The reason for the delay is simple, first remember that most of the Apostles probably didn't know how to write. The church in Judea was able to get the facts straight from the Apostles or any other eye witnesses. Once they sent Paul and Barnabas off traveling though the empire things began to get more complicated. Eventually you had Paul, Silas, Barnabas, Mark, Luke, Timothy, Titus, Priscilla and Aquila, and Apollos all doing stuff all over the map. Paul, who was the founder of most of the new churches, was unable to be everywhere at once and thus had to send letters ("epistles"). He wrote even more letters after he was thrown in jail. As letters became the Church's main form of communication, Mathew wrote down his account of the ministry of Jesus in order to convince the Jews in the empire that Jesus was the Christ. Mark wrote down the facts that he had received from the Apostles mainly Peter, but his gospel account was mainly to convince the non-Jews. (Remember that Peter probably never learned to write until he was old) Luke having looked though all the other accounts and after talking to many of the eye witnesses decided to list the events in chronological order (Mathew and Mark did not) and list any major events that they hadn't written down. The Apostle John wrote last and mentioned anything important that was left out elsewhere, he focused on the impact of the events on everything else and how everything ties together. John ended his Book on this note "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written."

Lustang Wrote:reading this would be simpler: http://www.godlessgeeks.com/JesusExist.htm

The guy is completely wrong, it would take forever to explain why though.

Lustang Wrote:- Us: Yes some people use our actual existence as proof of god. It has not occurred to them that we could have been created by something else.

Like that whole aliens creating humans thing on Youtube?

Lustang Wrote:The morals behind religion: Whilst I fully support the morals of Christ, it's used to control the masses through fear and greed.
Fear: If you do not do as we say, you shall burn in hell for all of eternity.
Greed: If you do as we say, you shall be granted a place in heaven which has everything you have ever wanted.

The whole "Christianity was created to control the masses" thing...

I'm sure that's the reason the Roman Empire was hunting down Christians and feeding them to the lions.

Lustang Wrote:Illogical creation: I do not see why someone omnipotent would have a desire to create humans. Or care about them.

God created everything, we were basically just the cherry on top, a creature that could think logically the same way as God does, a creature that could fix it's own environment, tend the plants, and oversee the animals; a creature that could logically analyze it's surroundings and understand how the world functions.

Obviously, we know how humanity turned out though.

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

Lustang Wrote:Irrational dependency of the human brain: Unfortunately the human brain needs answers. Has someone ever whispered something you didn't hear, and you nagged them until you found out what they said again (it was probably useless anyway, right)? Humans have used God to explain everything, thunder and lightning to earthquakes etc. We can not comprehend that we simply exist without purpose.

Well, technically you really can use God to explain everything, this is his creation and everything the happens was already foreordained to come to pass. If you see lightning hit a building, naturally it occurred due to the electrical charge of the building/ground and the electrical charge of the thundercloud, however it was bound by fate to happen since the beginning of the world, and under the circumstances right before the lightning strikes it's impossible for it not to happen anyway, just it was impossible for the circumstances right before to have not happened.

The universe isn't random, it's pseudorandom

Lustang Wrote:Sorry if any of the above has offended, these are the main points I feel. Please, prove me wrong; I want a God just as much as you all do.

No offense taken, Hopefully I haven't given any either

[AWOL]

Liquid Wrote:Well, technically you really can use God to explain everything, this is his creation and everything the happens was already foreordained to come to pass. If you see lightning hit a building, naturally it occurred due to the electrical charge of the building/ground and the electrical charge of the thundercloud, however it was bound by fate to happen since the beginning of the world, and under the circumstances right before the lightning strikes it's impossible for it not to happen anyway, just it was impossible for the circumstances right before to have not happened.

So, God meant for Satan to become jealous, turn his back on heaven, fuck up humanity for all time (despite the fact that God knew exactly what was happening) and condemn everyone but himself? OH BUT HE LOVES US YOU SAY. Makes perfect sense.

[Liquid]

AWOL Wrote:So, God meant for Satan to become jealous, turn his back on heaven, fuck up humanity for all time (despite the fact that God knew exactly what was happening) and condemn everyone but himself? OH BUT HE LOVES US YOU SAY. Makes perfect sense.

Yes, although I wouldn't phrase it quite the same way.

But here's a theoretical question: Would you exist today if there was never any such thing as Evil?

[AWOL]

No, and I wouldn't care (as I wouldn't exist). The better course of action would've been not to create Satan in the first place. That much is obvious. The world would have been much better because of it.