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To everyone who joined these forums at some point, and got discouraged by the negativity and left after a while (or even got literally scared off): I'm sorry.

I wasn't good enough at encouraging people to be kinder, and removing people who refuse to be kind. Encouraging people is hard, and removing people creates conflict, and I hate conflict... so that's why I wasn't better at it.

I was a very, very sensitive teen. The atmosphere of this forum as it is now, if it had existed in 1996, would probably have upset me far more than it would have helped.

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My rant on coercion
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Dragon4Anarchy Offline
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Post: #1
My rant on coercion

On Coerion (bear in mind question marks are rhetorical XD)


We as a society have been conditioned the rules ad hierarchy, to the point where we deem it a natural occurrence. We cipher phrases mentioning the animal kingdom as if it sanctions the use of force to make others do what we want them to, but there are many things we all know human beings won’t do that an animal might, as an intellectual species with conscious free will. I ask, what is the nature of coercive force? Does it feel natural my friends, when you are young and disciplined, told what to do, punished, told what to say how to think? Does it seem natural in those early years to you? I would ask then if the answer is no, how can you say it is natural then when you are older, how can you be sure it is not merely that you are used to the systemization of your life, the clockwork, the schedules. But that’s the point, we know it is because we are used to it, we train and condition our young despite their natural wants and needs and deem it good because it seems to yield results. The result, 'productivity' that is capable of disregarding desires and feelings of the free mind, productivity that often necessitates that to be.
Why do we live? People have varying reasoning’s, but for most of us we live to do what we want and enjoy life. Yet should that mean the necessity of a state sanctioned pre set path to get where we want? Does the need in us to produce, to eat, to breathe and live, only exist when taught to us? How then can we say that without unnatural coercive force people would not do anything? It is to say contrary to nature itself of every living creature that we would sit in vegetative states and die. And yet what is it we are faced with today? Tedious days of drills, of constant testing and work, of disciplinary action in our schools, of harassment by those set 'above' us and our peers alike in both education and work.
Where does this assumption that no learning is valid unless forced and pushed on by another? That if you have not received a state sanctioned piece of paper you have not learned. Have we not proof that not all orders given are just, that the right thing is not always what someone else tells you? Murderers walk in the streets with medals because someone told them to pull the trigger, and yet we call them soldiers, heroes even, and respect them for doing what any dog could do, for killing their fellow man. Because the government said it was ok, so it can't be murder, right? Wrong, obviously, and personally I think far from being a justification the commands of another person should be just the thing that makes the crimes of soldiers so wrong and foolish, that they kill those they have no personal quarrel with because someone else gave the go ahead. Give me a vigilante any day, at least he won't be a tool, because no personal judgement can be trusted with such things, no matter rank or reputation, so at the very least show me someone who isn't just a dog and even if his crimes be unforgivable let him be treated as a human being while we put 'soldiers' in dog kennels where they belong with leashes around their necks. They are worse than dogs even, for they choose to live by the orders of others, much like a dog will follow the master that feeds but these are men, and so should know better. However I must retract much of that, because they were raised as us, with the idea that what they tell us is the ultimate truth. Such people, obedient tools, are the by-product of our society, just as most criminals are by-products, created when people are judged too much for not fitting in and so lash out against a world that shunned them wrongfully. These are pitiable creatures, as are we all in some way.

How can we shame our fellow human beings for making free decisions, how do we justify it? It is a proven fact that human beings make the most effort and do the most productive things when grabbed by something that personally interests them. Some lucky people find that within the system, others prefer taking the direct path and learning on their own. It's a matter of difference, not superiority or inferiority.

Now many of you are thinking 'I managed in school and work, so no one else has an excuse for not doing just as well, unless they are stupid or lazy.' This statement is simply untrue. People do not run on a one size fits all standard, however the system forces us to conform to such a rigidity, forcibly moulding us to specific conditions, making us sacrifice feelings, dreams, wants and aspirations to suit a standard of 'practicality.' I say the ultimate practicality is freedom; the only practical way is one that does not unnaturally condition people to go against their feelings, ever. People simply should not have to do things they don't want to, and everyone, and I mean everyone, has something they want and enjoy doing that can give something to the world at large.
We are damaging ourselves and our younger generation, we are enslaving them, we are training them like we would mongrel dogs, and we are using shame tactics to make any who dare act as they wish feel inferior. We even do this to our loved ones, maybe without the intention of harm, but it harms them nonetheless. The cycle must stop, we must have more than a clock to look forward to in our lives, and we must open our eyes to the fact that the state does not have the ultimate answers, that not all paths need to coincide at all with what they say to be successful. We can act and live differently, as differently as we want, and still do great things for the world. We should have the choice, all of us, without being judged for it. Because we are human, because we are free. Unnatural forcing of human beings to do things against their will is slavery, and it is evil.
10-19-2008 09:13 AM
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John Tuttle Offline
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Re: My rant on coercion

wut
long post is long

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10-19-2008 12:18 PM
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thewake Offline
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Re: My rant on coercion

LewRockwell.com Wrote:The non-aggression axiom is the lynchpin of the philosophy of libertarianism. It states, simply, that it shall be legal for anyone to do anything he wants, provided only that he not initiate (or threaten) violence against the person or legitimately owned property of another. That is, in the free society, one has the right to manufacture, buy or sell any good or service at any mutually agreeable terms. Thus, there would be no victimless crime prohibitions, price controls, government regulation of the economy, etc.

That what you are saying, Dragon?

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10-19-2008 12:19 PM
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Avenger Offline
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Re: My rant on coercion

dragon4anarchy's post is win utter win!

Telling people to do something without giving a reason compels them to rebel not to obey-Avenger

We need to learn not to be afraid of making mistakes all the time-Avenger

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10-19-2008 12:22 PM
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John Tuttle Offline
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Re: My rant on coercion

BEST NEW MEMBER. Wait a minute, thats me. Sorry. You can always be the second best new member. Mind if I call you Aldrin from now on? JK.

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10-19-2008 12:27 PM
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Dragon4Anarchy Offline
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Re: My rant on coercion

Thanks guys I wrote that while listening to some metallica glad you all liked it. Yes I am a follower of left wing libertarian and anarchist ideals.
10-19-2008 12:32 PM
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Rebelnerd Offline
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Re: My rant on coercion

in that case, welcome aboard comrade.

I think Buenaventura Durruti is a pretty cool guy. eh kills fascists and doesnt afraid of ruins.
The quickest way to kill a revolution is to wait for it.
10-19-2008 01:10 PM
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thewake Offline
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Re: My rant on coercion

Dragon4Anarchy Wrote:Thanks guys I wrote that while listening to some metallica glad you all liked it. Yes I am a follower of left wing libertarian and anarchist ideals.
I'm a minarchist, a capitalist libertarian.

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10-19-2008 02:10 PM
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SoulRiser Offline
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Re: My rant on coercion

Welcome Smile

Good post. I saw your other post in the help forum too - you want this added to the articles section? ... 'Cause it'd need a bit of work first. There are some typo's and grammar issues and it'd be easier to read if it was broken into more paragraphs. But if you fix that stuff, I'll add it Smile

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10-19-2008 11:50 PM
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Darthmat Offline
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Re: My rant on coercion

Oh, now you have standards, huh?
ELITIST

I highly suggest Mobb Deep's albums The Infamous and Hell on Earth, if you have not listened to it yet.
10-20-2008 12:03 AM
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liq3 Offline
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Darthmat Wrote:Oh, now you have standards, huh?
ELITIST
Noo

If that was supposed to be a joke, you failed.

Epic win book.
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10-20-2008 12:18 AM
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Dragon4Anarchy Offline
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Re: My rant on coercion

SoulRiser Wrote:Welcome Smile

Good post. I saw your other post in the help forum too - you want this added to the articles section? ... 'Cause it'd need a bit of work first. There are some typo's and grammar issues and it'd be easier to read if it was broken into more paragraphs. But if you fix that stuff, I'll add it Smile


Yeah that was my intent, I wanted to know if adding an article was possible first, I wrote it in ten minutes while listening to music and quite possibly drunkRazz so yeah I know about the typoes. I'll give it an edit just tell me how I can send the revision to be posted as an article, thanx Smile
10-20-2008 12:53 AM
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i-am-the-liquor Offline
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Re: My rant on coercion

Darthmat Wrote:Oh, now you have standards, huh?
ELITIST

its not huh, there is nothing afterwards, i repeat , NOTHING! fucking americans " that was bad ass HUH?" god fucking damnit if i could kill everyone of you i would be set.

I dont mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am,so thats how it comes out.- bill hicks
10-20-2008 01:35 PM
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SoulRiser Offline
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Re: My rant on coercion

Quote:Yeah that was my intent, I wanted to know if adding an article was possible first, I wrote it in ten minutes while listening to music and quite possibly drunkRazz so yeah I know about the typoes. I'll give it an edit just tell me how I can send the revision to be posted as an article, thanx Smile
Hehe. Well, you can edit the one here and then reply to it, or you can send it to me as a PM. Or both.

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10-21-2008 02:48 AM
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TheDelinquent Offline
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Re: My rant on coercion

"Murderers walk in the streets with medals because someone told them to pull the trigger, and yet we call them soldiers and respect them for doing what any dog could do, and for killing their fellow man."

Hard to hear, but the truth usually is.

My only addendum to your speech is that any soldiers in a war are there (usually) voluntarily. If they go shooting at one another like they were playing some high-stakes game of cards where whoever has the fastest hand wins, it's because they are. We shouldn't blame them then, in QUITE the same sense we blame civilian murderers, because the civilian murderers and the professional warriors are living under different transformation rules at the time of the crime. We pity and aid the warrior when they are wounded in combat because the contract the bullet made with their body is a more demanding contract than the imaginary ones keeping the soldier in the war to start with.

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10-21-2008 07:39 AM
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Dragon4Anarchy Offline
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Re: My rant on coercion

TheDelinquent Wrote:"Murderers walk in the streets with medals because someone told them to pull the trigger, and yet we call them soldiers and respect them for doing what any dog could do, and for killing their fellow man."

Hard to hear, but the truth usually is.

My only addendum to your speech is that any soldiers in a war are there (usually) voluntarily. If they go shooting at one another like they were playing some high-stakes game of cards where whoever has the fastest hand wins, it's because they are. We shouldn't blame them then, in QUITE the same sense we blame civilian murderers, because the civilian murderers and the professional warriors are living under different transformation rules at the time of the crime. We pity and aid the warrior when they are wounded in combat because the contract the bullet made with their body is a more demanding contract than the imaginary ones keeping the soldier in the war to start with.


Does that not make it worse, that they chose to follow orders? Any decent man even if he joined the military for the benefits would desert their ranks rather than kill for them, be the consequence imprisonment or not it is still the only moral option. They chose to kill for a system and to kill those they are told to kill, so they have both the responsibility of their foolish choice and the status of dogs doing as they are trained, because even dogs stay because they are fed by their owners rather than any sense of morality or ideals.
10-21-2008 07:43 AM
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TheDelinquent Offline
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Re: My rant on coercion

Nope. It is true they are following orders. Oh well. I guess my beef with orders depends upon what's being ordered. Let me put it like this. In a war, a soldier's only immediate transformation paths (where he foresees he will end up based upon the rules the environment's playing by) are kill or be killed. Say we afford some theoretical grunt with the vice of indecision. He's there in a war zone, bombs are going off all around him - do you really think it's his orders he's following at that point? Nope. Of course, that's not the theoretical grunt-mind the military would like advertised, but the average person in a war zone cares about nothing more than getting out alive (there are some exceptions).
What I mean is that in civil society, a murderer has the ability to change his mind and walk away up until the second he commits the crime. In war, that oppurtunity was over the second you stepped into the battlefield. At that point, living may mean killing. And I'm not going to call someone fighting for their right to live a murderer in the same class as Albert Fish or Jeffrey Dahmer.

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10-21-2008 09:37 AM
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Dragon4Anarchy Offline
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Re: My rant on coercion

TheDelinquent Wrote:Nope. It is true they are following orders. Oh well. I guess my beef with orders depends upon what's being ordered. Let me put it like this. In a war, a soldier's only immediate transformation paths (where he foresees he will end up based upon the rules the environment's playing by) are kill or be killed. Say we afford some theoretical grunt with the vice of indecision. He's there in a war zone, bombs are going off all around him - do you really think it's his orders he's following at that point? Nope. Of course, that's not the theoretical grunt-mind the military would like advertised, but the average person in a war zone cares about nothing more than getting out alive (there are some exceptions).
What I mean is that in civil society, a murderer has the ability to change his mind and walk away up until the second he commits the crime. In war, that oppurtunity was over the second you stepped into the battlefield. At that point, living may mean killing. And I'm not going to call someone fighting for their right to live a murderer in the same class as Albert Fish or Jeffrey Dahmer.

You misunderstood me. I meant that when the orders are goven to go to the battlefield a decent intelligent man will refuse, (unless he's been brainwashed into thinking he's doing anyone any good, in which case he's more retarded than evil) they are based first in training camps within their own nations before they ever get teh order to go to war, and it is at that point they should refuse and take whatever consequence they get, or better yet not join the military at all.
10-21-2008 10:08 AM
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Re: My rant on coercion

I don't misunderstand you, we're talking about two different things. You're focusing on the importance of intelligently refusing the call to arms to begin with, I'm focusing on the ramifications of trying to put those arms down too late into the game.

Overall, I believe, we agree.

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10-21-2008 10:36 AM
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Dragon4Anarchy Offline
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Re: My rant on coercion

TheDelinquent Wrote:I don't misunderstand you, we're talking about two different things. You're focusing on the importance of intelligently refusing the call to arms to begin with, I'm focusing on the ramifications of trying to put those arms down too late into the game.

Overall, I believe, we agree.


Well obviously in the middle of the actual physical battlefield refusal becomes impossible, and at that point if you do try to defect when an opportunity comes and are overseas you face equal if not greater evils from your superiors and comrades, at that point you either have to trust them completely or not trust them at all, either way you're screwed.
10-21-2008 12:02 PM
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Dragon4Anarchy Offline
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Re: My rant on coercion

My rant has been edited for those annoyed with the typos Smile just to let ya all know
10-21-2008 04:08 PM
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SoulRiser Offline
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Re: My rant on coercion

It hath been posted here: http://www.school-survival.net/articles ... ercion.php

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10-22-2008 05:54 AM
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