Why don't you like school?

[Dragon4Anarchy]

Heavy Lids Wrote:

Dragon4Anarchy Wrote:

Heavy Lids Wrote:I meant that if the Dept. of Education suddenly told everyone one day that attendance to school will no longer be enforced by the state on any level, then nobody would go.

And I told you you are wrong, what part of that don't you understand? Or is the teacher simply not paying attention.

This is the most powerful argument I have ever heard. If I knew before that you could simply tell someone they are wrong and win an argument, I wouldn't be so verbose.

And yet what does a teacher do? The fact is what I said in response to your 'no kid would go if it wasn't forced' comment is actually validated by human nature, and general fact, whereas what you are saying has no basis in logic whatsoever. You repeated an opinion that had already been proven wrong the first time you stated it, and even before you concieved it in your mind if you ask me.

If you were to reform schools and make them non-compulsary some would go and some would not, I know I would have gone at some point in life had it not been thrust upon me in such a way as to make me miserable, and were the school system not run as it is, because Ididn't want to when I was 5 does not mean Idid not want to learn, I picked up my first real book on my own and every piece of literature I enjoyed thereafter was usually something I was reading in my spare time or in class. Kids would still learn and many would still go to school, but with schools run as they are I honestly think the current school systems should be avoided at all costs except for those few that can go without being damaged by it, you know, the people who want to take the easy way and be spoon fed everything in life. The posts of others also help validify this fact.

Learning was around before schools, and it will be around after them, so besides the fact that many would go to school, for those that don't there's absolutely nothing wrong with that choice.

[thewake]

You're being a big incoherent Dragondude. Just saying.

[Dragon4Anarchy]

Dragon4Anarchy Wrote:

Heavy Lids Wrote:You assumed that school has to be funded with tax dollars. School does not have to be that way, and also, we could make schools non-mandatory which I honestly think would be better in a way, but then nobody would go.

I disagree, most would still attend, especially were the system reformed, they perhaps would attend at different stages in life, some would not attend but would pursue their own interests and leanr very well in things that suit them, then being able to pursue carreers that enhance their lives rather than conforming themselves and shaping themselves around a job that isn't suited to them. Saying there is no education without a formal school is simply untrue, and to say that you are disregarding some of histories greatest accomplishments.

That is where I originally went against her claim, then she repeated the same thing, also W I edited and added to that last post of mine.

[Heavy Lids]

Quote:And yet what does a teacher do? The fact is what I said in response to your 'no kid would go if it wasn't forced' comment is actually validated by human nature, and general fact, whereas what you are saying has no basis in logic whatsoever. You repeated an opinion that had already been proven wrong the firt time you stated it, and even before you concieved it in your mind if you ask me.

1) Admittedly I have nothing to go on whether or not people would show up to school if it were made non-mandatory.

2) "And what does a teacher do?" Stereotyping. I won't even respond to this.

3) I clarified an opinion, I didn't repeat it. I left out a detail I thought was important that may change the respones.

4) Who are you to say I was proven wrong?

5) Ending anything with "if you ask me" especially after you just basically told me, "I'm right. You're wrong." reeks of egoism.

[Dragon4Anarchy]

Quote: 1)Admittedly I have nothing to go on whether or not people would show up to school if it were made non-mandatory.

Quote:And yet you stated it as a fact, with no invectives showing it as mere opinion, quite pretensious don't you think?

Quote:2)"And what does a teacher do?" Stereotyping. I won't even respond to this

.

Quote:

That counts as a response.

Quote:3) I clarified an opinion, I didn't repeat it. I left out a detail I thought was important that may change the respones.

You added the department of education, hardly something that would change the overall argument, or anything for that matter as obviously the department of education is among the ones that make it manditory, however they are not the ones who enforce it when it comes to the legal issues, that is the actual federal government and family court/child welfare.

Quote:4) Who are you to say I was proven wrong?

Who are you to say you weren't? Bring me some examples then of what you're saying, I challenge you.

'John Burroughs has stated that experimental study of animals in captivity is absolutely useless. Their character, their habits, their appetites undergo a complete transformation when torn from their soil in field and forest. With human nature caged in a narrow space, whipped daily into submission, how can we speak of its potentialities?


[quote]5) Ending anything with "if you ask me" especially after you just basically told me, "I'm right. You're wrong." reeks of egoism.[quote]

Literary invective, nothing more, I'd be surprised if any person could so censor their speech patterns.

The quote system is really starting to get annoying....

[Heavy Lids]

With what you've shown me here, I'm not surprised you've had so much problem with other teachers.

All your responses are so loaded. I was merely presenting ideas, you are the one that wants to have a personal battle to feed your ego.

[Dragon4Anarchy]

Heavy Lids Wrote:With what you've shown me here, I'm not surprised you've had so much problem with other teachers.

Quote:

All your responses are so loaded. I was merely presenting ideas, you are the one that wants to have a personal battle to feed your ego.

You're the one who clearly has not learned all that much for a teacher, the rest was reasonable but your stating that no one would attend school or learn without coercion is simply ignorance.

And btw yes I had problems in school as I have clearly stated, but as I was forcibly made to go there I don't consider it a mark against my personnality at all.

Quote:

All your responses are so loaded. I was merely presenting ideas, you are the one that wants to have a personal battle to feed your ego.[/quote]

I never invited a personal battle, but if you want to come here representing teachers at least be careful what you say unless you want to be considered entirely ignorant.

[Heavy Lids]

Quote:You're the one who clearly has not learned all that much for a teacher, the rest was reasonable but your stating that no one would attend school or learn without coercion is simply ignorance

Thanks for the insult.

Quote:I never invited a personal battle, but if you want to come here representing teachers at least be careful what you say unless you want to be considered entirely ignorant

Nah. I come here representing me.

Just keep trying to paint me as stupid, it's really helping you.

[Dragon4Anarchy]

Heavy Lids Wrote:

Quote:You're the one who clearly has not learned all that much for a teacher, the rest was reasonable but your stating that no one would attend school or learn without coercion is simply ignorance

Thanks for the insult.

Quote:I never invited a personal battle, but if you want to come here representing teachers at least be careful what you say unless you want to be considered entirely ignorant

Nah. I come here representing me.

Just keep trying to paint me as stupid, it's really helping you.

I did not say stupid, but what you said was an unthinking and ignorant claim, we all make them at times. Notice I have not tried attacking anything else you said, you made one offhand assumption that is not only the most common thing used to keep kids in the system falsely thinking it's the only way but also among the most untrue. Now can we not call this discussion closed and move on to other subjects mademoiselle? It is quite pointless.

[Heavy Lids]

Ya okay, I guess I'm done here, you win. If it makes you so happy to be right, I admit that I made an "offhand assumption" and built everything I said around that false assumption. You're right, I'm wrong.

Good luck with yourself.

[Dragon4Anarchy]

Heavy Lids Wrote:Ya okay, I guess I'm done here, you win. If it makes you so happy to be right, I admit that I made an "offhand assumption" and built everything I said around that false assumption. You're right, I'm wrong.

Good luck with yourself.

You were wrong on one thing, thats all, now you want to end it on a sarcastic note? To what purpose? You said yourself earlier in the thread you had no basis for the claim, think what you want goddammit but I pity a person who insists on acting as you are over one disagreement. And no, none of this brings me much happiness at all, I'm on this site 1) to converse with people who won't shoot down my very worldview and will agree on some things 2) and more importantly to contribute in any way I can for those still under the system you work for and suffering because of it. You said you're here representing yourself, I am here to support my own choices and help others do the same.

[KitsuneSefam]

Heavy Lids Wrote:Ya okay, I guess I'm done here, you win. If it makes you so happy to be right, I admit that I made an "offhand assumption" and built everything I said around that false assumption. You're right, I'm wrong.

Good luck with yourself.

Win.

[Dragon4Anarchy]

KitsuneSefam Wrote:

Heavy Lids Wrote:Ya okay, I guess I'm done here, you win. If it makes you so happy to be right, I admit that I made an "offhand assumption" and built everything I said around that false assumption. You're right, I'm wrong.

Good luck with yourself.

Win.

lol, as if being sarcastic ever validated an argument.

It's simple, she said kids would not go to non0-manditory schooling, now if she were a student who said something with no basis on fact her teacher would tell her she's wrong. That's what I did, and yet obviously she can't practice what she preaches and respect it when someone actually knows something better than her.

[psychopath]

Nobody going to school is not a problem, school doesn't teach much anyway. If nobody went to school then school would HAVE to improve, or it would perish. If it perished, other learning methods would be available.

[monkey]

Why I hate school.

because your not good at a class your deemed as a failure.

This happens every day, And the kids are blammed punished. Is it there fault that there failing if there forced to be there? Am I a horrible child because I dont like the class? Well I am deemed as a failure.

So yes at least in your logic.

If i dont like the class. Im not good enough.

[Captain_Katiakicz]

Everyone has pretty much stated why I don't like it... When I discovered the Teenage Liberation Handbook, I discovered what REAL, that is, not enforced, learning was. I started questioning things more. Interesting enough, things I'd been taught in the past, such as nutrition (vitamin a, c, blah blah etc) in science and PE, I didn't give a crap for, but now since I've discovered my own interests in nutrition and exercise, I actually like them! So that one section of the science book and all those years taking PE classes were a waste. It makes me upset thinking of all that time I wasted, not just in those classes, but all of the classes I had to take where I could've been LEARNING all along. To be truthful, I find myself wishing I would've been more rebellious in school, because I think that would've made me more happier than what I was, and I wouldn't have gone down and obeyed so easily.

http://www.homeeducator.com/FamilyTimes ... ticle4.htm

You might want to read that, it's by a teacher so you might find it interesting.

[Heavy Lids]

Quote:It's simple, she said kids would not go to non0-manditory schooling, now if she were a student who said something with no basis on fact her teacher would tell her she's wrong. That's what I did, and yet obviously she can't practice what she preaches and respect it when someone actually knows something better than her.

I still have no idea what you're talking about.

We are arguing about human nature and that's a bit of a philosophical issue full of speculation. I want to drop this argument because it's going nowhere. You have an axe to grind with "The System" which you seem to blame for all your life's problems. We are arguing about nothing.

Anyway, the Dept. of Education is, well, a department. It's part of the executive branch of the government and the secretary of education Margaret Spellings advises the president on educational issues. If you want to complain about something, she's the one that convinced Bush to sign in the NCLB act that nobody likes.

I as a teacher have no power to change anything. You can get pissed off all you want at your school and your teacher when it's actually TPTB who are keeping you and me down. I do what little I can to make life easier for my students but unfortunately I sometimes come across people like you who just want to fight because they have to be against something.

Also to rebelnerd. We had a teacher here who was rather poor. Guess what? The students complained and one day even some of the class had refused to take a test. What soon followed was that the teacher was evaluated, and fired.

This has happened to me before, and it's surprisingly hard to find a job for some reason. It's the bureaucracy I guess.

[Dragon4Anarchy]

Heavy Lids Wrote:

Quote:It's simple, she said kids would not go to non0-manditory schooling, now if she were a student who said something with no basis on fact her teacher would tell her she's wrong. That's what I did, and yet obviously she can't practice what she preaches and respect it when someone actually knows something better than her.

I still have no idea what you're talking about.

We are arguing about human nature and that's a bit of a philosophical issue full of speculation. I want to drop this argument because it's going nowhere. You have an axe to grind with "The System" which you seem to blame for all your life's problems. We are arguing about nothing.

Anyway, the Dept. of Education is, well, a department. It's part of the executive branch of the government and the secretary of education Margaret Spellings advises the president on educational issues. If you want to complain about something, she's the one that convinced Bush to sign in the NCLB act that nobody likes.

I as a teacher have no power to change anything. You can get pissed off all you want at your school and your teacher when it's actually TPTB who are keeping you and me down. I do what little I can to make life easier for my students but unfortunately I sometimes come across people like you who just want to fight because they have to be against something.

Also to rebelnerd. We had a teacher here who was rather poor. Guess what? The students complained and one day even some of the class had refused to take a test. What soon followed was that the teacher was evaluated, and fired.

This has happened to me before, and it's surprisingly hard to find a job for some reason. It's the bureaucracy I guess.

If you'll recall I said it was pointless ealier, you're the one who wanted to keep fighting, or at least leave it on a bitter sarcastic note. I was aggrivated by an ignorant assumption which led to this frag fest because neither I nor you were backing down, but my only qualm was the assumtpion until you attacked my person. Real mature, I didn't know they allowed children to teach in schools nowadays. Btw I'm Canadian, so my school system is not one set or approved by Bush, or at least I hope my country has retained that much sovereignty from the states, but who knows these days.

About human nature, that people will learn with or without schools and that people will choose to go to school or at least learn is proven fact, proven by, oh let's say the people who set the foundations for all language math and science, those who on their own came up with the original concepts before they even existed as we know them. Also we can consider that at times in our civilisation when school was voluntary and people not only went but wanted to go, which was at any point before cumpulsary education, look up statistics if you don't believe me or ask someone from that time period.

I don't blame the system for my problems, I blame it for what it directly did to me, reasonable enough in my opinion.

I don't have to be against anything, I am against whatever I find wrong and I am for what I find right.

I'm glad your school took the step and fired the teacher, this case is an exception to the way things are generally run.

[Rebelnerd]

Heavy Lids Wrote:Also to rebelnerd. We had a teacher here who was rather poor. Guess what? The students complained and one day even some of the class had refused to take a test. What soon followed was that the teacher was evaluated, and fired.

This has happened to me before, and it's surprisingly hard to find a job for some reason. It's the bureaucracy I guess.

Just because you and your coworkers have suffered in the bureaucracy doesn't justify the way some of them take their anger out on students. I know not all of them do it, but the problem is they can if they wanted. See, to us it's not just about how students are treated, it's about how they could be treated. Even if a teacher happens to be nice, if he or she wanted to change, most likely nothing would happen to them or the students would be told to just deal with it, because all adults are to be obeyed and respected. As I said before, It's all about the power dynamic.
I don't know the teacher you're referring to; maybe she deserved to be fired and maybe she didn't. There's not enough information here about the situation for me to make a qualified judgement. I've noticed that we often have different opinions as to what makes a teacher good or bad.

[ChickenLeg]

NiteRaidah Wrote:

• I'm forced to go.
• I learn subjects that I have no interest in/most likely won't need later on in life.
• Students have next to no voice.
• Some of the punishments/rules are ridiculous. Just some.
• The students are idiots, really.
• I do not like school spirit, not one bit. Yes, I should dress up like a wanker in order to support the place which has made my life crummy! Of course!
• There are a few teachers/members of the staff who are unfair, not very pleasant, utterly incompetent, or all of the above.
• The amount of work that can be assigned at times, very little of which will be beneficial to a later career or will help me in the short-term.[/list:u]
  
  Just off of the top of my head. I'm sure there are a few more. While some on the list may seem petty, they are reasons why I dislike schools & where they are.

Took the words out of my mouth.

[psychopath]

Quote:I as a teacher have no power to change anything. You can get pissed off all you want at your school and your teacher when it's actually TPTB who are keeping you and me down. I do what little I can to make life easier for my students but unfortunately I sometimes come across people like you who just want to fight because they have to be against something.

If someone hires an assassin to kill you, you have to fight off the assassin as well as his boss.

[Rebelnerd]

psychopath Wrote:If someone hires an assassin to kill you, you have to fight off the assassin as well as his boss.

LOL best analogy ever.

[VampyrMagick]

i personally enjoy learning, its all the other things at school that piss me off, like when the teacher insist on teaching us something we already know, or when say in english it is the teacher is teaching you about something that is completly irrelevant etc
and i think that all the blocks on school computers is ridiculous, i understand some blocks, but the amount of blocked things just pisses me off, you cant do anything once you have finished all your work and waiting for the class to finish, or during lunch or anything.
i heard about this way of teaching...its the ....some name begining with M , method where all you do is have the students at school, you dont teach them anything unless they want to learn it now to start with i wuld imagine the students would just mess around hang out outside etc, but after a bit they would get bored of that and some people would come into the class rooms and want to learn, and it is much easier to teach someone who WANTS to learn rather then is being forced to learn.
the students would turn up to which class they want to learn and then learn that subject, n they are free to leave that room when they feel they want to.
i dont think it gets used very often, only a few places use this method, but from what ive heard it work really well and the students are rather intelligent and happy at school compared to most at normal schools...

[Lucie]

K, so here's my opinion.

Heavy Lids Wrote:may I ask why you all hate school so much?

I don't hate "school", I hate that my parents sent me 3500 miles away to go to a school where I don't want to be. This leads to a hatred of school in a different sense as it is all I have here.

Heavy Lids Wrote:I'm in a bad part of town and some of the students in my school come from terrible families. School is relief for these kids, and school can help them.

At home I live in a very good part of town, I wouldn't say my family is "terrible" but my parents would fail 6th grade parenting, I was raised by nanny after nanny and last weekend I was home for the first time in 2 months, did my Mom bother to drop by? No. She was too busy with some charity thing. School and my friends were my only escape from home when I lived in NY and I wasn't in a bad part of town. i don't think it matters how priviliged your background is, you always know that there is something that isn't school or your family that I presume your kids want too.

Heavy Lids Wrote:I've never seen a single student show up to a school board meeting.

Um...? because it's all teachers who wouldn't listen and tell them their ideas are inappropriate/wrong/not in keeping with the schools ethos?

Heavy Lids Wrote:You can also try talking to your parents to help you.

...

[Lucie]

VampyrMagick Wrote:i dont think it gets used very often, only a few places use this method, but from what ive heard it work really well and the students are rather intelligent and happy at school compared to most at normal schools...

are you talking about the Dalton? I know you said M but it sounds kinda similar, learning what you want when you want sort of thing?

[VampyrMagick]

Lucie Wrote:

VampyrMagick Wrote:i dont think it gets used very often, only a few places use this method, but from what ive heard it work really well and the students are rather intelligent and happy at school compared to most at normal schools...

are you talking about the Dalton? I know you said M but it sounds kinda similar, learning what you want when you want sort of thing?

yer that sort of a thing, im not sure...from what i can remeber of the name i was sure it was a M ..but i could have got the name confused..but yer a learn what you want when you want sort of thing

[Squittle]

Honestly, going to a private school (I swear to God, I'm not a pompous better-than-you asshole, or a rich kid, etc, etc), I kind of enjoy MY school - but that's it. At mine, to make most decisions, we, the students themselves, put opinions and options out there, rather than the staff making all the decisions for us, since WE'RE the ones that have to suffer through the changed. I just think unschooling should be a more widely accepted option and alternative to school, that tests should be life - situation tests rather than memorize this and that tests, and that there should be major changes to the way things are done; starting with an evaluation of the relevance of topics taught, and expanding outwards. In public schools, since you're forced to go there, rules should be less strict; mainly, dress code rules, speech rules, the connection between sports and grades, and things like that. There should be in - school votes and meeting, like was mentioned, to decide changes in the school, as opposed to a small out of touch committee that has no idea what the kids want deciding the direction the school goes in.

[random_name]

because i dislike being lied to. and school lies a lot.

[VampyrMagick]

random_name Wrote:because i dislike being lied to. and school lies a lot.

I know they always say , if you tell the truth you wont get in trouble, and then you do get in trouble its terrible.
or they say if you manage to finish all your work then you can play games on the internet (they dont say this to me personally , just to othe rkids in the class, ive heard them)
and then ...NO games! it sucks

[HeartofShadows]

Let me bring up my experience with university so far..
As I was getting signed up and whatnot you would have figured I was a king. The staff was nice and respected me and even my teachers are nice and respectful of all the students and its because we pay their check.

Public school should be the same in the same sense(Not horribly overpriced). The students should be given choice and if their is no respect then I agree with rebelnerd that the schools should fail and be shut down.