Why don't you like school?

[Heavy Lids]

You are all vehemently against school, and I see that some are even discussing a walkout...Civil disobedience is noble, but may I ask why you all hate school so much?

I teach in a high school and, school has a lot of potential. It could be a great environment if there were some changes made to the system. Without school, how are kids supposed to basically learn anything? I'm in a bad part of town and some of the students in my school come from terrible families. School is relief for these kids, and school can help them.

I participate on the school board and I try to make some things happen, but you can lose your job if you try to do things too differently unfortunately.

If you all care about school, you should try to participate on the school board. The students here can do that, but I've never seen a single student show up to a school board meeting. You can also try talking to your parents to help you.

[Rebelnerd]

There are many things I don't like about school, but it would pointless to delve too deeply into all of them and forget the main flaw. I believe that all the school's problems spring from one inherent issue: the students themselves have no voice in the way the system is run. The potential for abuse of power in a situation like that is frightening to me as both a student and as a strong believer in civil liberties. When the government is in control of what the new generation learns, and the students cannot influence its decisions about how they're treated, it seems like democracy is setting itself up to fall.
The national embarassment of standardized testing, the cruelty of the student pecking order, the absolute power teachers and adminstrators hold over students' daily lives, the unconstitutional restrictions on free expression within the classroom, and the horrific post-Columbine witch hunt atmosphere that's left thousands of innocent students branded as terrorists could all be solved if the student body was allowed to make a difference in the education system's policy making. Being on the school board means nothing when society sees you as a second-class citizen.

[Darthmat]

I actually like school. I hated my old one, but High School, so far, is enjoyable. I just don't think it should be mandatory.

[Heavy Lids]

Rebelnerd Wrote:I believe that all the school's problems spring from one inherent issue: the students themselves have no voice in the way the system is run.

Students have as much a voice as teachers if they would speak up. It's a myth that teachers control the students. We constantly have to answer to the district, the state, the parents, and the school administration.

If you want to call students second class citizens, then so are teachers.

In fact, we have more at stake than you, because we can basically just lose our jobs. A lot teachers won't admit it, but they do what they do because they need a job.

[thewake]

Heavy Lids Wrote:We constantly have to answer to the district, the state, the parents, and the school administration

When you have to answer to the student council, you can say we have a voice.

Quote:If you want to call students second class citizens, then so are teachers.

In fact, we have more at stake than you, because we can basically just lose our jobs. A lot teachers won't admit it, but they do what they do because they need a job.

That's true to an extent. If we don't go to school we get a nice criminal record of truancy.

I personally think the two biggest things wrong with school are that it is coercive by nature, forcing children to go, and that it is public and "free". Anything supported by tax dollars is supported by government sanctioned theft, which is what taxes are.

[Heavy Lids]

The student council at my school doesn't do anything, although, if you students cared enough, you could form an informal union on your own time and start working out some things you would like to see changed and perhaps teachers can help you. I've mostly just seen complaining personally.

Quote:I personally think the two biggest things wrong with school are that it is coercive by nature, forcing children to go, and that it is public and "free". Anything supported by tax dollars is supported by government sanctioned theft, which is what taxes are.

You assumed that school has to be funded with tax dollars. School does not have to be that way, and also, we could make schools non-mandatory which I honestly think would be better in a way, but then nobody would go.

[Rebelnerd]

Heavy Lids Wrote:Students have as much a voice as teachers if they would speak up. It's a myth that teachers control the students. We constantly have to answer to the district, the state, the parents, and the school administration.

But none of those groups you have to answer too are students. It's hard to speak up when you're too young to vote or see kids on the news arrested, expelled, and diagnosed "mentally ill" by child psychologists as if defiance was a disease, just for speaking out against the status quo. Frankly, we're tired of being at the bottom of the barrel.

Quote:If you want to call students second class citizens, then so are teachers.

Oh, I know teachers don't have a great job. Both my parents were teachers at one point, my Dad in fact was a substitute at my own school a couple times. But you are higher up then we are, that's undeniable. Just because I respect the fact that teachers have it tough doesn't mean I have to excuse everything they've done, allow the injustices committed against us to pass by unnoticed.

Quote:In fact, we have more at stake than you, because we can basically just lose our jobs. A lot teachers won't admit it, but they do what they do because they need a job.

This I'm going to have to disagree with you on. The teachers' union makes it very hard for even a bad teacher to lose their job once they have tenure, and it can often result in students getting stuck with a lackluster teacher.
And remember, worse things can happen than losing a job. I don't know what your experiance as a teacher has been like, but I've seen some crazy stuff happen to kids. If a teacher screws up and says something innappropriate, maybe they'll get fired. If a student screws up and says something innappropriate, he can earn himself a label that will follow him the rest of his life. Which is worse: having "fired" on your job application or having the world think you're a psychotic freak who might just snap and go on a killing spree at the slightest provocation? Maybe you'll even end up at a place like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb89h3luQOY We're not all about boring homework and tests, our problem is with the power dynamic of the entire system.

[Fire Elf]

Here's what. Go to the school I am forced to attend, and take a self-guided tour of the place. If after, say, 30 minutes, you don't get why I hate school, you have failed as a human beings.

[NiteRaidah]

• I'm forced to go.
• I learn subjects that I have no interest in/most likely won't need later on in life.
• Students have next to no voice.
• Some of the punishments/rules are ridiculous. Just some.
• The students are idiots, really.
• I do not like school spirit, not one bit. Yes, I should dress up like a wanker in order to support the place which has made my life crummy! Of course!
• There are a few teachers/members of the staff who are unfair, not very pleasant, utterly incompetent, or all of the above.
• The amount of work that can be assigned at times, very little of which will be beneficial to a later career or will help me in the short-term.[/list:u]
  
  Just off of the top of my head. I'm sure there are a few more. While some on the list may seem petty, they are reasons why I dislike schools & where they are.

[Dragon4Anarchy]

Heavy Lids Wrote:You assumed that school has to be funded with tax dollars. School does not have to be that way, and also, we could make schools non-mandatory which I honestly think would be better in a way, but then nobody would go.

I disagree, most would still attend, especially were the system reformed, they perhaps would attend at different stages in life, some would not attend but would pursue their own interests and leanr very well in things that suit them, then being able to pursue carreers that enhance their lives rather than conforming themselves and shaping themselves around a job that isn't suited to them. Saying there is no education without a formal school is simply untrue, and to say that you are disregarding some of histories greatest accomplishments.

[magikarp]

It's inefficient--I'm homeschooled now and can finish everything I need to in roughly 3 hours a day instead of 6 hours plus a few more for homework.

Also, it seemed like no one at my school agreed on what the purpose of school is. What would be the point in doing something when I don't even know why I'm doing it? Instead of doing something for the sake of doing it, I'd rather decide what I want to accomplish and then decide how to go about it.

Quote:...then nobody would go.

Honestly, I might.

[Elfy]

Fuck school , I'd rather be at home than that shitty boring pile of crap infested brainwashed dickheads.

Seriously , I'd rather be anywhere than school. Because I'm forced to wear what they tell me, Mother fuckers breahig my rights.

You ask every kid In high school , In maths/english/science "Would you rather be at home doing the stuff you like right now?" 99.9% of the time they will say yes.

[thewake]

Heavy Lids Wrote:The student council at my school doesn't do anything, although, if you students cared enough, you could form an informal union on your own time and start working out some things you would like to see changed and perhaps teachers can help you. I've mostly just seen complaining

Most kids think that adults wouldn't help them, and most adults wouldn't. From what I've seen teachers expect to have a sort of authority in their classroom for no good reason, when teachers should be answering to the students(consumers).
Students are oppressed. Workers unions are legal and well, but if we tried to negotiate better hours or freedom we'd be laughed at or worse!

Quote:You assumed that school has to be funded with tax dollars. School does not have to be that way, and also, we could make schools non-mandatory which I honestly think would be better in a way, but then nobody would go.

Most schools are funded by taxes and most first world contries have mandatory schooling laws.

[liq3]

Heavy Lids Wrote:Students have as much a voice as teachers if they would speak up. It's a myth that teachers control the students. We constantly have to answer to the district, the state, the parents, and the school administration.

Omg I love you. Someone intelligent!


As for my answer to your question. It's ineffective for learning, and a waste of time.

[The Wadekarl]

I guess that the number one problem that I had with school, and still do, is the fact that I was pretty much forced to attend, you know, compulsory schooling laws.

Another thing, if schools were privatized and not funded by the government, and for that matter, had pretty much nothing to do with the government, I'm sure that a lot of schools would be better off. Screw NCLB and government mandated testing and government mandating anything.

Also, as far as the "nobody would go" comment goes, with the government not forcing children to go to school, schools would now be forced to turn into better places. If schools think that they can get away with things like metal detectors and "reasonable suspicion" strip searches, and all of the other injustices that they do without the compulsory schooling law in effect, they've got another thing comin'.

People would choose to go to the schools that treated them fairly and did their jobs best, therefore the good schools would be the only schools and the bad ones would drift off into oblivion. Let the market decide, is what I'm saying.

So I guess what I ultimately have a problem with is the fact that the government tries to (and usually succeeds in) controlling the schools and therefore controlling us and I think that they should stay out of it.

[Dragon4Anarchy]

I would also add that there's nothing wrong whatsoever with not going to school at all for those who choose it. And as for injustices, does Ritalin sound familiar to anyone? How about ODD, ADD, ADHD, all supposed 'disorders' diagnosed so they can keep students doped in school against their will.

[HeartofShadows]

The problems I have with school are thus..

1. I have had some teachers who were ok or pretty special but like most they were people who used their job to get their penis off and feel important and ugh administrators.

2. School has contributed to alot of family problems in people and it pretty much turn's parents and other adults into soldiers of the state.

3. The oppressive atmosphere and the one size fits all teaching. History is all well and good(I like history as well as english and science) but its mostly not important for somebody in the world and neither is writing assignments over and over.

[KitsuneSefam]

I will say the exact thing than Rebel-> Students have no rights in school.

For example in my school, all the rights of the students in the rules are contradicted by other rules, if i mix up a couple of them, i have this abomination;

-Students have a right to free speech and liberty of opinion as long as it doesn't bother the staff which have total authority over students and the order of the classes.


Oh look, the teacher in gym class proposes us to do tae-bo, i don't want to do it and i refuse to. What happens? I get threatened to have a 0, detentions and i get shown the door(i can either stay or "go away", of course, there are security guards on the other side waiting to punish me more for choosing the door) for a class i didn't even want to attend in the first place, but i'm forced to. This kind of climate simply negate any kind of rights a individual could have and it just ends up being "shut up and do it". This is a awfully real mental cage.

[chibichibibear]

I simply hate school because it makes me miserable. I go there, and do badly so I feel horrible whenever I get home.

And the fact that it goes by the 'one size fits all' mentality. Everyone doesn't learn the same way, or even want to learn the same things. I'd be better off at home than I am drifting off in my history/math/health/Language Arts class.

I would definitely benefit from it not being compulsory. So I hate that we are punished for not going. It might be good for some people, but not me. Very much not me.

[SoulRiser]

Before grade 9 the main reason I hated school was 'cause I got bullied constantly. I didn't really even hate the school itself 'cause the bullies just overshadowed everything else so much.

Then I went to a private school, which was awesome at first. Everyone cared what the students thought, we got to write our own Code of Conduct, students were consulted for every new school suggestion, we got to vote on just about everything... this was awesome. But a year or so later, things started changing, the principal and teachers gave in to the demands of snobbish, stupid, stuck up parents who were complaining that some of the students were looking 'sloppy' or weren't doing their work (there was no detention either)... so it gradually became more like a normal school. I've written this entire long story elsewhere on the site, so I'll keep it short for now. Basically, this whole thing made me see what is possible for schools... they could be so much better than they are, if people would just stop being so arrogant and listen to what the students want. That goes for parents as well.

You just can't work within a system that caters to the worst of parents at the expense of everyone else.

[Puchiko]

Heavy Lids Wrote:we could make schools non-mandatory which I honestly think would be better in a way, but then nobody would go.

Rebel_n00b said it best, but I'd like to add that college is voluntary (and pretty expensive too). Yet most colleges have no problem with getting enough students enrolled, thanks to social conditioning. In the Czech Republic, secondary school is not mandatory. Yet most schools have to turn applicants down. That doesn't exactly support your statement.

I don't like school because there are many classes where I haven't learnt a bit for years. It's wasted time. I admit I have attained some knowledge through school, but it's disproportional to the time spent. I could have learnt a lot more through self-study in less time.

Another thing I don't like about school is being subordinate. I'm a liberal, bordering on an anarcho-capitalist, and thus don't believe people should be forced to do things. I loathe being bossed around, and made to spend my time in a non-constructive manner. I want freedom, a right guaranteed to me by the constitution.

[Heavy Lids]

I meant that if the Dept. of Education suddenly told everyone one day that attendance to school will no longer be enforced by the state on any level, then nobody would go. Initially parents would pressure their children, but then give up.

On top of that, I see many schools around the country simply closing down never to reopen again because they were stupidly placed there by the state. It would take a while for a new school system to take the old one's place.

Quote:That goes for parents as well.

I'm sick of getting calls from parents who complain about some triviality. Unfortunately I have to act nice and pretend I care, otherwise that parent will go to the principal and I get in trouble. If I was in total control, things would be different and better.

[KitsuneSefam]

Heavy Lids Wrote:I meant that if the Dept. of Education suddenly told everyone one day that attendance to school will no longer be enforced by the state on any level, then nobody would go. Initially parents would pressure their children, but then give up.

If that happened, it would force schools to actually stop having their fascist narrow-minded way of educating their students since their students will actually have a choice to go or not if they like/dislike it. Which is good, i'm sure people would still go if that happened.

[Dragon4Anarchy]

Heavy Lids Wrote:I meant that if the Dept. of Education suddenly told everyone one day that attendance to school will no longer be enforced by the state on any level, then nobody would go.

And I told you you are wrong, what part of that don't you understand? Or is the teacher simply not paying attention.

[Puchiko]

Heavy Lids Wrote:I meant that if the Dept. of Education suddenly told everyone one day that attendance to school will no longer be enforced by the state on any level, then nobody would go. Initially parents would pressure their children, but then give up.

The argument I posted above hasn't changed. There are non-mandatory schools (colleges in the US, secondary school here, etc.) yet the kids still attend. See my above post for more detail, I already covered this.

Heavy Lids Wrote:If I was in total control, things would be different and better.

"Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely"
I think that quote is very true. I think teachers need less powers, not more. They need to learn to respect their students, which will lead to the students respecting them, which will ultimately result in a system not of rules written by one party, but a system where everyone respects each other (kinda like small-scale anarchy, no authority).

[i-am-the-liquor]

many,many reasons.

[Rebelnerd]

Heavy Lids Wrote:I meant that if the Dept. of Education suddenly told everyone one day that attendance to school will no longer be enforced by the state on any level, then nobody would go. Initially parents would pressure their children, but then give up.

thus forcing the schools to actually treat the students like more than livestock going through the assembly line. that's the way a business is supposed to work: if you abuse your customers then people don't buy from you and you go bankrupt, deservedly so. schools right now force students to attend, so there's no incentive for them to treat their students well. voluntary attendence would bring back checks and balances to a system that's gotten used to customers who will take any abuse or incompetance simply because they have no choice.

[Heavy Lids]

Dragon4Anarchy Wrote:

Heavy Lids Wrote:I meant that if the Dept. of Education suddenly told everyone one day that attendance to school will no longer be enforced by the state on any level, then nobody would go.

And I told you you are wrong, what part of that don't you understand? Or is the teacher simply not paying attention.

This is the most powerful argument I have ever heard. If I knew before that you could simply tell someone they are wrong and win an argument, I wouldn't be so verbose.

[Rebelnerd]

Heavy Lids Wrote:This is the most powerful argument I have ever heard. If I knew before that you could simply tell someone they are wrong and win an argument, I wouldn't be so verbose.

Indeed, that strategy is quite popular among your chosen profession.

[thewake]

HeavyLids Wrote:I meant that if the Dept. of Education suddenly told everyone one day that attendance to school will no longer be enforced by the state on any level, then nobody would go.

So be it. People have free will that shouldn't be restricted by the government unless it hurts someone else. The kids are people, and thus they deserve the freedom to choose.

And you don't know that nobody would go, I'd go to my current school until I found a better way of learning or a better school. School isn't the problem as much as the government control(sinister or not) over it.