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Sunbourn · 03-12-2009 12:22 AM

ITT: We try to have an intelligent civilized discussion about abortion.

I can't make up my mind on whether or not I am for or against. I am pro choice, which is why this is so difficult for me to decide. On one hand, it's the woman's body and she should have the right to do whatever she wants with it, but what about the baby? Doesn't the baby have the right to live? Let's also not forget that if she didn't want the baby she should have used a condom during sex. I do think she has every right to abort the baby is she was raped though.

Sociopath · 03-12-2009 01:00 AM

are the eggs in the womb alive too? I think so, they have to be rite?

...how does it feel to be...NOT alive...?

MM · 03-12-2009 01:05 AM

Alright, it my opinion, the woman should have every right to do whatever she wants. Usually when a woman want's an abortion, it's usually because she doesn't want to raise a child in the first place, or doesn't have the necessary "tools" to raise a healthy child, as it's a pretty big undertaking. If the woman doesn't want a child, chances are she's not going to raise the kid right, and that's probably not going to work out well for the child.

Now, if it's like abortion when your child comes out to be like mentally retarded, then I don't support abortion then. But if the kid is born with a type of severe condition that makes him/her a vegetable or something to that effect, then I do support it.

Sociopath · 03-12-2009 01:08 AM

What happens if she has a fatal disease that either she dies, or the baby dies? what then...?

Jackass McAwesome · 03-12-2009 01:53 AM

Then it doesn't matter, does it? One less moron falling from some chick's/slob's slimehole. I'm not going to feel bad about it. I think all woman should have a right to abort the unborn thing, UNLESS the father wants to take care of it.

At that stage in development, it's not much more than a parasite, yanno?

Sociopath · 03-12-2009 04:18 AM

IDK...

random_name · 03-12-2009 04:29 AM

Although i thin abortion should be available to women if they want it, i dont think i could, in effect, kill a child. I would have problems with that.

Liquid · 03-12-2009 11:13 AM

MM Wrote:Alright, it my opinion, the woman should have every right to do whatever she wants. Usually when a woman want's an abortion, it's usually because she doesn't want to raise a child in the first place, or doesn't have the necessary "tools" to raise a healthy child, as it's a pretty big undertaking. If the woman doesn't want a child, chances are she's not going to raise the kid right, and that's probably not going to work out well for the child.

Now, if it's like abortion when your child comes out to be like mentally retarded, then I don't support abortion then. But if the kid is born with a type of severe condition that makes him/her a vegetable or something to that effect, then I do support it.

The woman doesn't need to keep the child afterward. Whether or not she wants him/her does not affect whether the abortion is right of wrong.

Is it right to kill/"abort" someone who is a "vegetable"? Also how do you know that a cure for their condition won't be developed tomorrow, or since this is a person's live, how do you know a cure won't be developed in the next 70 years?

The Nazis wanted people like that to be aborted, if you look you'd see that a good number of the pro-abortion arguments nowadays are copied nearly word for word from our good friends the "National Socialists."

TrueAnarchist Wrote:What happens if she has a fatal disease that either she dies, or the baby dies? what then...?

I think that's more of a historical situation, but I don't know much about medical stuff.

It'd be a rare case; part of the "caesarean dilemma", nowadays doctors can normally they can do a caesarean section (c-section) and take the baby out.

A long time ago when they said they'd have to chose between the mother and the baby, it usually meant that the baby would die if they didn't do a c-section, but if they did a c-section it would probably kill the mother because their medical knowledge wasn't as good back then. Doctors hardly had to do c-sections, vets were sometimes better at doing the operation than doctors because they got practice on cows.

The dilemma can happen nowadays but obviously the mother is the 1st priority, if the mother does somehow die, they have the baby cut out right away. Doctors already have plans to deal with all these situations.

MM · 03-12-2009 11:18 AM

Well, you're right the cure could be developed tomorrow, but if you were a parent of a child who was a "vegetable" (as in, basically dead, but still alive), would you want them to suffer?

Sociopath · 03-12-2009 11:18 AM

...ok...

Liquid · 03-12-2009 11:21 AM

MM Wrote:Well, you're right the cure could be developed tomorrow, but if you were a parent of a child who was a "vegetable" (as in, basically dead, but still alive), would you want them to suffer?

All life has suffering, that doesn't mean it's right to end the life.

How would you know that the suffering the parent wants to end isn't their own?

MM · 03-12-2009 11:26 AM

Well, I guess if someone was a living vegetable, they don't really suffer as they probably don't really know what's going on. But if a person was to live like that, as they couldn't do anything. They couldn't think for themselves, they couldn't move, why would you continue?

Milk2Go · 03-12-2009 11:28 AM

Liquid: Just a quick question: when someone has an abortion, do you think it's you that's going to be affected, or the mother?
If you say the mother's going to be affected, then what she does to herself is none of your business and you have no right to tell her what to do.

Sociopath · 03-12-2009 11:30 AM

true, id become an hero is I had to live like that

Liquid · 03-13-2009 06:32 AM

BobManPerson Wrote:Liquid: Just a quick question: when someone has an abortion, do you think it's you that's going to be affected, or the mother?
If you say the mother's going to be affected, then what she does to herself is none of your business and you have no right to tell her what to do.

The person (not) being born is the one affected.

Is it the mother's business to kill another human being? The mother has no right to decide whether He/She lives or dies.

Milk2Go · 03-13-2009 08:52 AM

Liquid:
What if the mother was raped? Would she still not have a choice as to whether or not she could have an abortion? Are you one of those stupid, Bible-thumping Christfags who think that it's her fault she got raped? Do you seriously think that, you asshole? I think you should just go kill yourself right now. You're too stupid to deserve life.
Or what if the mother got raped, and she has a medical condition where she would die during labor? Don't give me that "that doesn't exist" shit. My mother has that condition, and the baby would die as well. Are you to tell me that my mother has to die if she got raped? What kind of sick asshole are you to think that everyone that needs an abortion is some whore that doesn't know how to keep her clothes on? What kind of mental disease do you have where you're willing to ruin lives and potentially kill people just to make sure someone (who isn't even a real person, might I add) can be born? You sick fucking asshole bastard, I'd fucking kill you if I had the chance. You have absolutely NO FUCKING RIGHT interfering with someone else's problems. It's THEIR life, NOT YOURS. Do you fucking understand that, you fucking pathetic anti-abortion fanatic fucker?

EDIT:

Quote:Bishop punishes mom for daughter's abortion

Brazilian to excommunicate her and doctors for allowing it

RIO DE JANEIRO - A Roman Catholic archbishop says the abortion of twins carried by a 9-year-old girl who allegedly was raped by her stepfather means excommunication for the girl's mother and her doctors.Despite the nature of the case, the church had to hold its line against abortion, Archbishop Jose Cardoso Sobrinho said in an interview aired Thursday by Globo television.

"The law of God is higher than any human laws," he said. "When a human law — that is, a law enacted by human legislators — is against the law of God, that law has no value. The adults who approved, who carried out this abortion have incurred excommunication."

Health Minister Jose Gomes Temporao rebuked the archbishop, saying, "I'm shocked by two facts: by what happened to the girl and by the position of the archbishop, who in saying he defends life puts another at risk."

Abortion is generally illegal in Brazil, which is home to more Catholics than any other nation. But the procedure is allowed when the mother's life is in danger, when the fetus has no chance of survival or in rape cases where the woman has not passed her 20th week of pregnancy.

Doctors said the girl was 15 weeks pregnant when the abortion was performed Wednesday in the northeastern city of Recife, where Sobrinho is archbishop. Health officials said the life of the girl — who weighs 80 pounds — was in danger.

The pregnancy was discovered last week when the girl fell ill and her mother took her to a clinic. The child then told officials she had been abused by her stepfather, who is in police custody.

A similar case in southern Brazil surfaced Thursday. Authorities in Rio Grande do Sul state told the O Globo newspaper that an 11-year-old girl allegedly raped by her stepfather is seven months pregnant.The 51-year-old stepfather has been in jail since January while the girl is in a hospital for high risk pregnancies and apparently will not have an abortion.

See, if you had your way, that 9-year-old girl probably would've died.

Liquid · 03-13-2009 10:03 AM

BobManPerson Wrote:Liquid:
What if the mother was raped? Would she still not have a choice as to whether or not she could have an abortion?

It isn't the baby's fault. The baby is still the mother's son/daughter. Do you think that it right to punish someone for something that someone else did? The mother can give him/her away after birth and never have anything to with him/her.

BobManPerson Wrote:Are you one of those stupid, Bible-thumping Christfags who think that it's her fault she got raped? Do you seriously think that, you asshole?

By definition "Rape" is one-sided, obviously it isn't the woman's fault.

And no, that isn't the Christian position.

"Bible-thumping"? How do you know what's in the Bible and what isn't? Have you ever read it?

BobManPerson Wrote:I think you should just go kill yourself right now. You're too stupid to deserve life.

Coming from someone who's pro-death, that doesn't surprise me Smile

I guess your low view of life is taking it's toll Smile

BobManPerson Wrote:Or what if the mother got raped, and she has a medical condition where she would die during labor? Don't give me that "that doesn't exist" shit. My mother has that condition, and the baby would die as well. Are you to tell me that my mother has to die if she got raped?

NO, I am not.

You do know that doctors can remove the baby early, before the mother would have gone into labor, right?

BobManPerson Wrote:What kind of sick asshole are you to think that everyone that needs an abortion is some whore that doesn't know how to keep her clothes on?

Did I say that?
Point me to where I said that then.

BobManPerson Wrote:Liquid:
What kind of mental disease do you have where you're willing to ruin lives and potentially kill people just to make sure someone (who isn't even a real person, might I add) can be born?

I could just as easily say you have a mental disease, believing that a baby isn't a real person until they exit the mother's body. When I start talking to someone who thinks other people aren't "real people", I know I'm either talking to a Neo-Nazi or a pro-Death person.

Did you know that there are people (who are even a real people, might I add) who have survived being "aborted". They were in the same stage of development as others who are being aborted all the time.

There is one difference nowadays though, nowadays the death-doctors are no longer required to take the babies to hospitals when they don't die. INFACT nowadays when they build the building they put in a row of shelves where they can leave the babies until they die since they aren't supposed to actively kill them.

BobManPerson Wrote:You sick fucking asshole bastard, I'd fucking kill you if I had the chance. You have absolutely NO FUCKING RIGHT interfering with someone else's problems. It's THEIR life, NOT YOURS. Do you fucking understand that, you fucking pathetic anti-abortion fanatic fucker?

Obviously, if it's fine to kill babies... It must be fine to kill me too Smile

Good luck tracking me down, I doubt even the government can do that...

---------------------------

About your quote about the Catholics:

Yes it sucks for the two girls involved, but the doctors have different methods to try to save the lives of both the mothers and the babies. Also as your quote mentioned, only one of the girls had an abortion, the other one isn't going to.

BTW:
Did you know that with the death-rate for mothers dying in pregnancy, the death-rate is higher for abortion than with giving birth?

Milk2Go · 03-13-2009 12:01 PM

Liquid Wrote:BTW:
Did you know that with the death-rate for mothers dying in pregnancy, the death-rate is higher for abortion than with giving birth?

Obviously. More people give birth than have abortions.

Fuckthesystem · 03-13-2009 04:40 PM

Abortion is fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQXPTM-T ... re=related

Watch it. It's The Amazing Atheist and he has some very good insight on the matter.

Hanny · 03-20-2009 07:33 AM

You people are forgetting something!

This is a nine year old. She does not understand what is wrong with her; Does she FUCK. Carrying twins would kill this 80-pound girl before she reached term. And then the babies would definitely die.

In effect, this abortion saved the girl's fucking life.

Fuckthesystem · 03-20-2009 07:52 AM

Hikari, did you just delete a few posts?

Cilaos · 03-20-2009 07:54 AM

She didn't.
I split them and put it in the frag arena.

Fuckthesystem · 03-20-2009 07:55 AM

Ah, I see.

Freak · 03-20-2009 09:56 AM

But you're saying that right should be decided by you and not the person that's actually carrying the baby.

Also, you can't force a women to have a baby if the father decides he wants it. I think that's generally wrong, to not let the father have any say. But the women would have to carry it for 9 months.

Besides, if a women wants an abortion she's probably going to get it one way or another. Before Roe v. Wade women would get them in like.... back alleys with dirty surgical tools and an unqualified doctor. Actually, have you seen Dirty Dancing? Yeah.

Fuckthesystem · 03-21-2009 12:10 AM

It's up to both of them equally.

I understand what you're saying though. The woman is the one who has the baby with her 24/7, so she may get one regardless of what the man says.

That's just the way it is in some cases. Fair or not. Unless you want to follow the woman around 24/7, making sure she doesn't try to get an abortion.

spookycloud · 09-22-2009 11:16 PM

The mother is the one who has to live with the consequences, so she's going to project her life experiences and current circumstances regarding whether a) life is worth living b) she can provide the baby with an adequate upbringing to ensure life's worth living c) she wants to concentrate on her future, get an education, serve god and the world that way. We all make mistakes, Christianity is all about forgiveness right?
If it's a teen pregnancy, I'd feel more sorry for the teen's parents who'd have to sacrifice time and expenses.. living people, especially those not responsible, deserve their freedom while the fetus has no comprehension of whether it even cares for a choice.
Perhaps I'm selfish but even if my family had the resources to support the baby I wouldn't want to risk some of the complications that may result from pregnancy such as morning sickness, gestational diabetes, post natal depression etc.

Quote:It isn't the baby's fault. The baby is still the mother's son/daughter. Do you think that it right to punish someone for something that someone else did? The mother can give him/her away after birth and never have anything to with him/her.

Adoption is an option but the foster care system doesn't guarantee a loving, caring, adequate upbringing. I know someone who became pretty depressed over the idea that he was given up for adoption because he felt unwanted. Even if it was the mother's fault for being unequipped to raise him, you still feel as though you were an accident and weren't meant to be here.

Quote: Is it right to kill/"abort" someone who is a "vegetable"? Also how do you know that a cure for their condition won't be developed tomorrow, or since this is a person's live, how do you know a cure won't be developed in the next 70 years?

It's not necessarily wrong if it meant more attention could be shifted to those who needed cures which are readily available. Attend to the vegetables after a cure is found since nothing can be done now. Why do we equate morality with longevity of life? In some contexts abortion is necessary eg. overpopulation if there isn't a high enough overseas adoption rate. Isn't it just our attachment and fear of grief? Maybe death exists in a more pleasant state than life. We don't seem to view non-existence as evil since matter can't be created or destroyed. :/

Why do Christians reassure people that god took their children away to a better place even when they died young and life didn't seem quite complete, yet the idea of a fetus' spirit being sent back to heaven is abhorrent when God endorsed a process of dying that caused physical pain to the child and emotional pain to a bond which had been developed over a longer period of time?

tbh I empathise more with the radical environmentalists, that adoption is the way to go if you want to have kids, and it's not a bad thing if you want to limit your breeding since the earth has limited resources and ventilators for pollution. The government is paying baby bonuses to mothers as an incentive to breed future taxpayers. Again, might sound selfish, but we're going to die anyway so I don't buy the "we need someone to take care of us in old age" argument and who cares about survival of our species unless reincarnation is true, which I still believe unfortunately since people are going to keep breeding regardless of what I think. It sounds like I'm pro-abortion but I'm pro-choice. I just don't think mothers should choose to have the baby solely based on sentimental idealising of the child's unborn potential. If an informed and prepared mother chooses to have kids on the other hand, nature will take its course. Both sides are necessary to sustain and stabilise the growth of population...

Rebelnerd · 09-23-2009 12:54 AM

When you really think about it, what's the difference between getting an abortion and, say, using a condom? They both do essentially the same thing, just at different stages of development. If a woman decides that she does not want to have a child, and, for example, the condom breaks, why should she have to have it just because one birth control measure failed? A fetus is not a baby. It is still a parasitic clump of cells. If you're going to refer to anything that could become a baby as a baby, then where is the outrage when people use spermicide?

Sociopath · 09-23-2009 12:57 AM

Rebelnerd Wrote:When you really think about it, what's the difference between getting an abortion and, say, using a condom? They both do essentially the same thing, just at different stages of development. If a woman decides that she does not want to have a child, and, for example, the condom breaks, why should she have to have it just because one birth control measure failed? A fetus is not a baby. It is still a parasitic clump of cells. If you're going to refer to anything that could become a baby as a baby, then where is the outrage when people use spermicide?

I agree.

I think of it as what could it BECOME? y'never know, the next baby you have could be an inspirational band member, or a doctor, or be the one who finds the cure for AIDS

Thought Criminal · 09-23-2009 05:10 AM

seriously though, I am pro-choice. If the woman doesn't want the child but cant get an abortion the child's life will be sit anyway, why not just end it before it happens?

Liquid · 09-23-2009 08:53 AM

For those of you who say that a "fetus" is not a baby. When does it become a baby?

As you know, there are people who have survived would-be abortions. When they came out alive instead of dead they were able to fit in the palm of the abortionists' hands, and they were already able to cry.

There are abortion survivors out walking world right now, just everyone ignores there fact, plus it's not exactly something you want to tell other people. "Hey, my birth mom wanted to go back and get a edu-fascist-ication and decided that I wasn't a real person yet, I survived a lethal injection to the head, but my back hurts every day because of what they did trying to kill me. I can't sue anyone about it because I wasn't a real person when they did it."

Plus, abortion babies are born alive ALL THE TIME, just normally they are set on metal shelves until they die. Of course they are just "sacks of cells," with arms and legs, pumping hearts, crying in pain just like you or I would if someone had just injected us with a syringe full of a burning poison, but then again, aren't you and I just sacks of cells too.

Anyone who defends abortion has either not done enough thinking or does not know the facts but listens to pro-death lies instead.

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