Basics for a "parenting kit"

[Rule_BreakerXVIII]

After reading so many posts about terrible parents and families (including mine) I decided to look for advice on parenting. Sure, I have a general idea, but these links define what a good parent does right. In a previous post Hans had introduced the idea of a parenting kit. Hope these help

http://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifesty...-need.html

http://www.lifehack.org/articles/communi...child.html

http://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifesty...trums.html

http://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifesty...=innerlink


http://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifesty...ation.html


All of these are from lifehacks, and rightly too. Once we've identified that we have bad(to various degrees) parents or relatives, we need to decide how to deal with them- whether talking and improving our relationships, or cutting them out of our life ASAP is our choice. It's also important that we don't repeat our parent's mistakes with our kids, so here goes.

[xcriteria]

Very much agreed... let's do this. Those links are good.

I think we'll need to produce our own content that addresses parenting + school.

Justin Schwamm has pointed to family systems therapy as a helpful approach... basically it involves people learning to look at interactions in a family from a systems thinking perspective:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_therapy

Helping nurture a growth mindset vs. fixed mindset is another key item... if those in the family think they can learn and grow, and that there will be benefits of doing so, they're much more likely to be open to trying to do so, vs. assuming it's pointless to try to change:

Fixed vs. Growth: The Two Basic Mindsets That Shape Our Lives

I also think that learning/teaching metacognition and self-awareness in general can help a lot.

Psychiatrist Dan Siegel has some good stuff relating to parenting, metacognition, and so on... clips on YouTube, articles, and books as well:

Hidden stuff:

Watch on YouTube

I also recommend the book Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When Stakes are High a lot, as it covers key skills that could help improve a lot of family and other interactions... including metacognition, reframing, stepping back from avoidance and lashing-out reactions, and so on.

More information on why yelling is bad: Study Says Yelling Is As Hurtful as Hitting

In addition to collecting some more resources, I think the big question is how to assemble these into an actual "kit" that people would be motivated to explore and discuss.

One way we might do this is build our own "method cards" that families can use in various situations, as well as use as a sort of game. One example: http://www.ideo.com/work/method-cards/

Hidden stuff:

"Inspired by playing cards, the cards are classified as four suits—Ask, Watch, Learn, Try—that define the types of activities involved in using each method. Each approach is illustrated by a real-life example of how the method was applied to a specific project."

"In its first year, the Method Cards appeared to have unexpected relevance to groups that are not necessarily engaged in design initiatives. Clients report using the tool to explore new approaches to problem-solving, gain perspective, inspire a team, turn a corner, try new approaches, and to adapt and develop their own methods."

I also think it'd be useful to encourage families to document some of their interactions, then bring them into some kind of online discussion to reflect and get input from third parties. Might be hard to get a lot of families to go for that, but I think it could help a lot.

Thoughts?

[Rule_BreakerXVIII]

This is great...A lot of helpful stuff here. What I don't like is this idea:

Quote:In addition to collecting some more resources, I think the big question is how to assemble these into an actual "kit" that people would be motivated to explore and discuss.

The whole point of a system is to get things done faster and more efficiently, without much effort or time spent in thinking or wondering how to do the given task better, which is not gonna cut it when it comes to parenting. My intention in starting this thread was to make a compilation of sorts for legit advice on parenting, as a basic foundation, because everyone is different, and every child is even more different. I'm not saying that you were wrong, per se, but that we shouldn't create a system in which people follow set methods mindlessly.

Also there is the issue of what others think you should do with your family, mostly parents, aunts, and other relatives. As long as abuse or neglect isn't occurring, it's people's own business how they raise their children. Naturally, a follow-up question to this would be, how do we monitor people and their children for abuse, without infringing on their rights or privacy? (One way could be to make health check up's mandatory.)

Even I'm not sure yet.

[xcriteria]

(07-14-2014 11:09 PM)Rule_BreakerXVIII Wrote:  The whole point of a system is to get things done faster and more efficiently, without much effort or time spent in thinking or wondering how to do the given task better, which is not gonna cut it when it comes to parenting. My intention in starting this thread was to make a compilation of sorts for legit advice on parenting, as a basic foundation, because everyone is different, and every child is even more different. I'm not saying that you were wrong, per se, but that we shouldn't create a system in which people follow set methods mindlessly.

I'd say the whole point of what I'd suggest for parenting is based on things like (1) being mindful and (2) being intentional... in other words, step back from mindlessness and look at "why" people do what they do.

A big part of the challenge I see is how to persuade parents (and everyone) to do more of those things.

The problem is, people often are looking for easy answers, and really being more mindful can be uncomfortable at first. It can require breaking out of known habits, and so on.

One of the best approaches is for people to actually reflect on and make sense of their past... for example, why their own parents did what they did. Here's an excerpt from Dan Siegel's book Mindsight about that idea:

Making Sense of Your Past by Daniel Siegel, M.D.

Hidden stuff:

Why do we parent as we do? When researchers asked this question, they hypothesized— as many of us would— that it is the childhood experience of parents that predicts how they behave with their own children. This sounds plausible, but it turns out not to be quite right.
When I first heard about what the researchers actually found, it changed my life and my understanding of the life of the mind. The best predictor of a child’s security of attachment is not what happened to his parents as children, but rather how his parents made sense of those childhood experiences. And it turns out that by simply asking certain kinds of autobiographical questions, we can discover how people have made sense of their past— how their minds have shaped their memories of the past to explain who they are in the present. The way we feel about the past, our understanding of why people behaved as they did, the impact of those events on our development into adulthood— these are all the stuff of our life stories. The answers people give to these fundamental questions also reveal how this internal narrative— the story they tell themselves— may be limiting them in the present and may also be causing them to pass down to their children the same painful legacy that marred their own early days. If, for example, your parent had a rough childhood and was unable to make sense of what happened, he or she would be likely to pass on that harshness to you— and you, in turn, would be at risk for passing it along to your children. Yet parents who had a tough time in childhood but did make sense of those experiences were found to have children who were securely attached to them. They had stopped handing down the family legacy of nonsecure attachment.
I was excited by these ideas, but I also had questions: What does “making sense” really mean? How can we accomplish it, and how does it occur in the brain?
The key to making sense is what the researchers came to call a “life narrative”—the way we put our story into words to convey it to another person. How an adult told his or her story turned out to be highly revealing. For example, people who were securely attached tended to acknowledge both positive and negative aspects of their family experiences, and they were able to show how these experiences related to their later development. They could give a coherent account of their past and how they came to be who they are as adults. In contrast, people who had challenging childhood experiences often had a life narrative that was incoherent in the various ways I’ll describe in the following pages. The exceptions were people like Rebecca. Based on the facts of their early childhood, they would be expected to have an avoidant, ambivalent, or disorganized attachment as children and an incoherent life narrative as adults. But if they had a relationship with a person who was genuinely attuned to them— a relative, a neighbor, a teacher, a counselor— something about that connection helped them build an inner experience of wholeness or gave them the space to reflect on their lives in ways that helped them make sense of their journey. They had what the researchers called an “earned secure” life narrative. Such a secure narrative has a certain profile; we can describe its features. Even more important, like Rebecca we can change our lives by developing a “coherent” narrative even if we did not start out with one.
This is such a crucial point that I’ll repeat it: When it comes to how our children will be attached to us, having difficult experiences early in life is less important than whether we’ve found a way to make sense of how those experiences have affected us. Making sense is a source of strength and resilience. In my twenty- five years as a therapist, I’ve also come to believe that making sense is essential to our well- being and happiness.

- Daniel J. Siegel, M.D. Mindsight: The New Science of Personal Transformation 2010, New York, NY: Bantam Books

Does that make sense, and does it address your concern?

One roadblock is that people may be skeptical that any new way of looking at things is worth it... and/or they may get defensive at the idea that there's a problem with how they've been doing things.

Crucial Conversations deals with that by presenting stories that basically demonstrate the value of some of these overlapping sets of methods about stepping back from mindless reaction and being more conscious of one's reactions and how one interprets situations.

If parents (and anyone) are open to doing that, it opens the door to a lot of learning that occurs when people start wanting to learn, instead of just hammering home their known ways of doing things.

(In other words, the thing school drills out of a lot of people.)

[Rule_BreakerXVIII]

Thanks...You definitely addressed my concerns. I'm still kinda worried, because parents get too caught up in themselves and think that they are smarter than their kids. As a result they see some image they fabricated, and not pay attention to what the kid is actually feeling and thinking. The whole point of rejecting ageism is to acknowledge that even children as young as 2 and babies are people, that they have thoughts and feelings as valid as anyone else's.

I think that the first step of observing your child and not hurriedly declaring him/her a (insert description) child isn't emphasized enough. After all, all the links on this thread are useless if it isn't your child you're seeing.

---

And making sense of my post just now, I can see that my worries are based off the horrible examples of "Indian parenting" (more like Indian stupidity, IMO) I see around me everyday. I don't know yet how people parent around the world, so please excuse me if i seemed too provincial.

[School]

A list of books could be part of the kit...

Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting

The Unschooling Unmanual

to name two.

[brainiac3397]

Sun Tzu's "Art of War", Clausewitz's "On War", Rommel's "Infantry Attacks", Che's "Guerrilla Warfare", Machiavelli's "The Prince" and Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus' "Epitoma rei militaris".

And finally:

[xcriteria]

Interesting set of choices, brainiac. Maybe we could adapt the key takeaways from those into a more digestible format than a stack of books?

(And then, reference them, in case people want to read more.)

In terms of looking at parenting and being in a family as "war," one idea is to look for win-win-win solutions, vs. looking at conflict as necessarily bitterly destructive.

I think one topic that needs to be covered, for sure, is negotiation and just ways to help people better pursue their underlying interests, vs. getting bogged down in immediate reactions.

Here are two videos I like to link about negotiation, which also reference Sun Tzu.

Turning Enemies into Aliles [1m]

Hidden stuff:

Watch on YouTube

Negotiation: Discover Legitimate Interests [3m]

Hidden stuff:

Watch on YouTube

These are principles not usually covered in school, but which can go a long way toward finding better ways to do things in complex interpersonal situations that are scenes in a longer-term story (family relationships tend to span decades... what you do now can impact how things play out later, just as your vision of possible futures can impact how you might choose to act in the present.)

[brainiac3397]

Of course one must read sun tzu to understand what he truly means to say, which that a victory without war is greater than the greatest victory in the history of war.

[xcriteria]

Exactly. So, that gets at a fundamental question in any given course of action, and in fact life itself:

How do you define success, a.k.a., victory?

What criteria do you set for evaluating things?

Lots to say on those questions, but they're certainly relevant to parenting on a number if levels, as well as dealing with parenting (or doing self-parenting where needed.)

[brainiac3397]

(07-15-2014 10:23 AM)xcriteria Wrote:  What criteria do you set for evaluating things?

The X Criteria.

[Rule_BreakerXVIII]

Compromise and negotiation-two things to consider. I'm not as well-read compared to others on here, mainly because I stick to fiction, but I have ideas and I'd be happy if you guys responded to them. I think victory can be defined as a win-win compromise (for eg, doing some chores and then going out with friends), at least as far as family is concerned, since you want the best for your children. There has to be a balance between discipline and indulgence, and respect. Obviously, actions speak louder than words for kids.

brainiac, I'd advise you to not take those books you suggested literally. Those are great guides on manipulation and deception, and even if family is like a government, try to be fair. Children are not the same as, say ruling an empire or dealing with a rebellion.

[brainiac3397]

If I shouldn't take literature literally, how else could I take em?

Worry naught. I have no idealistic tendencies. I'm too cynical fo' dat.

[Rule_BreakerXVIII]

"How did Huritt get hold of the beer anyway?" Sirius asked. Quiet, sensible Huritt would have been the last person he'd have picked to break the rules. But then Remus had been the same way – in hindsight, he should have known.

"His older brother gave it to him on learning that Huritt's relationship with his girlfriend had ended." Noshi sighed. "He advised Huritt to drown his sorrows. Their mother is not best pleased with either of them. I had to intercede to allow Huritt to come to this farewell meal."

"Thank you." Sirius murmured. "I can appreciate her point of view. Harry and I had a long talk about his punishment…but I couldn't take today away from him for a first offence."

"First offence?" Noshi said, eyes twinkling with amusement.

"Charlus Potter's punishment system. I figure James would have used it on Harry and Harry would respect it knowing it was his grandfather's system." Sirius explained. "For minor stuff, there were three stages of punishment. First offence: you did something you know or suspected was wrong but probably didn't anticipate the consequences. Second offence: you repeated something you know was wrong and were aware of the consequences. Third offence: you're a repeat offender and clearly don't care about the consequences. Then, there was the major stuff which was considered a capital offence if you did it – things that were not allowed under any circumstances, rules that couldn't be broken such as hurting someone unless in self-defence, deliberately destroying property in anger…that kind of thing."

"And punishment increases on the severity of the offence?" Noshi nodded. "It's a good system."

"I also followed Healer Fay's advice and asked Harry what he thought his punishments should be for each offence." Sirius took a sip of his juice. "She was right that he responded well to that. He knows exactly what he'll get now and has agreed to it. For Monday, he lost his flying privileges and was grounded for a week, and his friends ban, because he didn't do it alone, has only been revoked today for extraordinary circumstances."

"A fair punishment." Noshi commented. "I am glad Healer Fay advised you well."

"She also told me it was a good sign that he's comfortable enough to test our relationship with bad behaviour." Sirius commented wryly. "It's not exactly the way I wanted proof that he'd settled."

[Rule_BreakerXVIII]

That was an excerpt from the fanfic "A Marauder's Plan" on FF.net. It's a Harry Potter fanfic, and it's even better than the original. One other thing I loved about it was how Sirius handled his and Harry's relationship. There's a lot of great ideas on parenting such as the punishment system- there's a good way to give the Talk covered as well. I'll post it if anyone wants it.

[xcriteria]

(07-15-2014 04:05 PM)Rule_BreakerXVIII Wrote:  I think victory can be defined as a win-win compromise (for eg, doing some chores and then going out with friends), at least as far as family is concerned, since you want the best for your children.

I'd suggest going beyond win-win compromise, and look for ways to achieve "win-win-win" creation of value for all participants.

Sometimes, there really is a fixed pie, and the best you can do is figure out the best way to compromise on how to share it, vs. say fighting over it or one person throwing it at another. In other cases, you could learn how to bake pies, find a way to get money to buy ingredients, and bake many pies instead of doing something like enduring punishment or being sent to waste time in school.

It helps a lot to look at what people's underlying interests are. This includes things like most parents' big picture goals of long-term survival, success, and even happiness for their kids. By appealing to those ultimate goals, as well as shorter term needs/wants/preferences, it's often possible to find better ways for everyone to "win" than what people usually think of by the word "compromise."

On that note, the book Getting to Yes is one classic book that's worth putting on a list, and including ideas from in this kit. It talks about interest-based negotiation. Here's one summary of its ideas:

Principled Negotiation

"In Getting to Yes, Fisher, Ury, and Patton argue that almost all disputes can be resolved with principled negotiation. They reject the notion that some conflicts are inherently win-lose or that positional bargaining is ever a superior approach. Other theorists, however, disagree--as do we. Principled negotiation is an excellent tool to use in many disputes, but we have found that it needs to be supplemented with other approaches in the case of intractable conflicts. It also is more attuned to U.S. and Western European cultures which emphasize rational cost-benefit analysis, and de-emphasize the importance of relationships and emotions. Cultures which see relationship issues as central aspects of the conflict may find principled negotiation less useful."

(07-15-2014 04:05 PM)Rule_BreakerXVIII Wrote:  There has to be a balance between discipline and indulgence, and respect.

I'd say part of that balance between discipline and indulgence is best learned as a personal way of being, vs. something that's primarily imposed externally through discipline. Certainly when kids are younger, parents have to take on more of a role in managing their behavior, but I think one of the goals of parenting (as well as teaching, mentorship, and leadership in general) should be to help others learn to manage their own actions, especially by the time they're teens, but even earlier.

(Dan Siegel and Tina Bryson's book The Whole-brain Child talk about ways to help children's minds develop, as opposed to primarily using external management/punishment approaches.)

(07-15-2014 04:05 PM)Rule_BreakerXVIII Wrote:  Obviously, actions speak louder than words for kids.

Definitely... and a closely-related concept is that of modeling. What actions are modeled and copied? This includes things like how parents react to things and deal with situations in general.

Albert Bandura is well-known in psychology for his research on modeling in kids.

"In his famous Bobo doll experiment, Bandura demonstrated that children learn and imitate behaviors they have observed in other people. The children in Bandura’s studies observed an adult acting violently toward a Bobo doll. When the children were later allowed to play in a room with the Bobo doll, they began to imitate the aggressive actions they had previously observed."

"Bandura identified three basic models of observational learning:

A live model, which involves an actual individual demonstrating or acting out a behavior.
A verbal instructional model, which involves descriptions and explanations of a behavior.
A symbolic model, which involves real or fictional characters displaying behaviors in books, films, television programs, or online media."

All that said, just because behavior is modeled doesn't mean it will be copied. Especially if people (including kids) have a level of self-awareness and general understanding, they may be able to identify why a given kind of behavior is out of line with what they want to do.

(Very young kids have less of an ability to do this than a bit older ones.)

(07-15-2014 04:05 PM)Rule_BreakerXVIII Wrote:  brainiac, I'd advise you to not take those books you suggested literally. Those are great guides on manipulation and deception, and even if family is like a government, try to be fair. Children are not the same as, say ruling an empire or dealing with a rebellion.

That's a very good point. Many families unfortunately do run on manipulation and deception, and that's not a healthy way to operate, especially in a family, community, or organization.

Also, parents can and do learn from and react to their kids, so displaying problematic behavior to them might give them bad ideas, or simply breach trust and escalate conflict.

[brainiac3397]

By the way, there is no need for a win-win or win-win-win, if the 2nd and 3rd party cease to exist(either through annexation or exile)...cause then your win is their win, and their win is your win. Thus you win and nobody loses nor does anyone else win.

There can only be one.

[Rule_BreakerXVIII]

Nice suggestion, xc...by this point I'm getting a crash course on psychology on this site

We may overwhelm some parents (who are not as brainy or wordy) with these, though...what do you say should be the basic guidelines for raising kids? Things like respect and consistency in speech and actions.

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(07-16-2014 06:04 AM)brainiac3397 Wrote:  By the way, there is no need for a win-win or win-win-win, if the 2nd and 3rd party cease to exist(either through annexation or exile)...cause then your win is their win, and their win is your win. Thus you win and nobody loses nor does anyone else win.

There can only be one.

I'm pretty sure you're baiting me by this point.

[brainiac3397]

Actually that was a poke at xcriteria lil fishy.

[the Analogist]

The Three Category System applied to parenting:

1st Category - Fact/Submission, luckily the bulk of people's personality is assigned before they are born, so each child is their own case study. You cannot change who your child is.

2nd Category - Opinion/Conversation, Human nature. This topic needs to be explored with ideally the-two-parents and other parents, but even non-parents too. try to understand your kids and expect to be surprised. maybe some similar kids to your own exist elsewhere as kids or adults. maybe they have some insight. Join a forum like School Survival perhaps even. there is no illegitimate source.

3rd Category - Action/Mindfulness, the best question to ask as a parent is "how is that working out". Somethings they might just grow out of, some they might stick to as part of their emerging self which wants to assert itself. Deciding what battles to pick and fight should be made with consideration to that same experience base you seek insight from in the 2nd category.

This is how you begin to seek the one right way for each child. Like anything in the second category, you approximate perfection.

Questions?