Harsh truths about accepting and overcoming depression

[Miller0700]

1. You're not depressed because life sucks, you're depressed because your life sucks. It sounds smug and offensive, but it's true. The moment you stop blaming and projecting your problems on the world is the moment you can actually stand up and face them.

2. Believe it or not, depression is not caused by life getting you down, it's caused by lacking the knowledge, courage, or foresight to get back up.

3. The angrier you are, the bigger your emotional wall you're hiding behind is. Cry a little. It does not make you weak or beaten, its a release of pent up frustration and pain that is toxic to bottle up. Don't wait for your wall to get too high and then for it to collapse.

4. Breathe. Relax. Meditate. Depression is made worse by constantly ruminating and worrying about everything around you all at once. Take a breather, clear your mind and take it all one step at a time.

5. People will only help you only if you want to be helped. Its a two way street. You can't expect to be helped by being a dick to the people who are helping you. By being rude, cynical and loud towards them then of course it will cause them to abandon you. And you'll have no one to blame for being lonely but yourself.

6. The only way out is through, despite how painful and scary it may be. It's the only way and there's no going back when you're in.

7. Do not be afraid to ask for help or assistance when your down whether by a friend, parent or therapist. You might be seen as weak, naive or shallow by others, but it helps you in the long run.

8. Sometimes advice on treating your depression might not be the advice you want to hear. It may be brutally honest, but it opens your mind to possibilities.

9. Yes, sometimes to overcome depression means to give up certain people or objects that gives you comfort but bring you down at the same time.

10. In your process of overcoming depression, let go of your expectation that everything will go wrong. By expecting everything to go wrong, you constantly look for any flaw with others and point to any negative event around you to justify returning to your depressive state.

11. Feel free to add your own.

[Thade_Chan]

Actually depression is caused by a chemical fuck up in your brain. Yes, you can make it worse on your own. But, how it got there isn't the individuals fault.

[LightAbyssion]

I understand everything you're saying, but it's such an over-rationalized way of viewing depression. You're going for the "I'm going to slap you back to reality" and "it's all in your hands" approach but I have never seen that work. It usually makes a person even angrier because now they're being shamed for feeling a natural emotion, on top of the crap they've already been through. Yeah, technically and logically, it's their fault for caring in the first place. But true depression can't be flipped off by seeing a therapist. It's the reason why many turn to substance abuse and alcohol despite therapy.

I don't think you can ever get over severe depression. It can only be buried by A LOT of positivity and happiness. It's always going to be there - "emotional scarring" or whatever they call it. That, or you could put them on happy pills but I detest that cheap method.

In the end, here's a worst case scenario: a man's beloved wife goes crazy and burns down his home, killing herself and the kids. He ends up disfigured and crippled. Yes, technically he can wheel himself outside and sing with the birds. You're right. Still, at the risk of sounding like a baby, I think he has the right to be depressed for the rest of his life and neither you nor I can judge him.

[Ahab]

Miller0070 is mostly right. Depression, at least on the mental level (brain is a different story,) is a severe tendency for circular logic, the myth of linear progress, and false either/or's. I deal with depression every year, for at least a few months, and to destroy depression for a while at least you MUST, absolutely MUST convince your body before your mind. There is a phase where you radically accept yourself as you are, then a phase where you follow through with things you've been planning on but have been unable to do. The problem comes when depression is comorbid. Smoking, social anxiety, narcissism, drinking heavily, paranoia, etc. tend to lead back where you started. You can read this a few different ways, but the most poignant are 1) he's trying to be edgy and 'telling harsh truths' and 2) he's trying to motivate, doing something of an act, but it's worth feeding off of.

[stevehein]

I'd say these are closer to deadly lies....

because if someone were suicidal, hearing this list could be the last straw for them. I will write more later..

----
here is some of my "later"


There are so many things wrong with this list that it will take me and Cheeselover a while to respond to all of them... but in the meantime, I'd like to ask Miller what motiivated him or her to post this and what personal experience he or she has had with trying to help someone who is depressed. Cua it sounds like this list was made by someone who tried to help someone but it didn't go well, let's say.

This is a very serious subject. It is as serious as life and death. I feel very protective of anyone who is suicidal and might read this.

One problem with this list is that a person who feels depressed would not feel any more understood after reading it, and they are already in pain from not feeling understood. I would personally not want to ever talk to anyone again who said things like this to me. I would feel invalidated. I am speaking as someone who has felt suicidal, and who has listened to and helped suicidal people for about 15 years.
I really want to understand why Miller posted this list and which items on it he or she came up with. I found the first two items from the list on this forum
http://forums.psychcentral.com/depressio...-help.html so I am wondering where the others came from.

I also want to say that I think Miller would probably feel guilty and defensive if someone he/she talked to like this killed themselves. In fact Miller already sounds defensive.. and when u feel defensive you can't feel empathy. You don't feel open.. for example open to listening. So I guess I would ask Miller how open you feel to listening to my and Cheeselover's comments? CL isn't here with me now but I can say for sure this list would not have helped her when she was in highschool and nearly killed herself.

You can read her story at http://www.whatdepresses.me

*shakes head... this is really troubling me.. there is already enough of this kind of attitude going around about depression and too little empathy, compassion and understanding - and too little helpful caring. Notice I said *helpful* caring. You can care but that doesn't mean you are helping.

[stevehein]

(07-04-2013 12:58 PM)Thade_Chan Wrote:  Actually depression is caused by a chemical fuck up in your brain.

Could you say how you came to this belief?

I know it is a common one, but I'm curious how you personally came to believe it.

[timf]

Depression

What we call depression is not necessarily a single phenomena. There are several conditions that can be categorized by lethargy, low self-esteem, a sense of hopelessness, and an inability to function at a normal level.

1. Vitamin deficient diet. A lack of vitamins like B12 can produce a debilitating weakness. Also, a trace element such as lithium can have a pronounced effect on how we feel and function. When you consider that most of our food comes from the same fields that have been used for decades, it is not surprising that we are all operating with less that optimum levels of nutrients.

2. Psychological impairment. There are numerous non-physical reasons a person can come to a point of giving up or finding themselves unable to "bounce back". An abusive parent, an excessive self-focus, a hostile school environment, or some traumatic event such as a relocation, death, or betrayal can knock a person "off-track".

3. Unique body chemistry. Our DNA is unique, but related to our family. As a result, some people have more deficiencies in making critical chemical compounds that can have a significant effect on how we think and feel. There are a variety of supplements that one can take. Some of these can help some people while others may need something else.

4. Pathological condition. A person might have Lyme disease, cancer, a bacterial infection, or even some exotic parasite that can produce symptoms of fatigue, weariness, and debilitation.

It has been said that if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. The medical world looks at depression and sees a deficiency of serotonin as the reason. They often just prescribe Paxil or Zoloft because this is the only "tool" they have.

The problem with depression is that even though it can often be managed to significantly reduce the effects, the person seldom wants to.

[Thade_Chan]

(07-04-2013 11:53 PM)stevehein Wrote:  Could you say how you came to this belief?

I know it is a common one, but I'm curious how you personally came to believe it.

Because it been proved over and over again. That's what anti- depressants DO. They fix the serotonin levels in your brain. If there wasn't something wrong it wouldn't work. Am I right? Sure there are people who will try ONE and say they don't work. This is either because:

A. They expect immediate results. It takes an average if two weeks for any medicine of this sort (including anti psychotics) to start working. People tend to give up hope after a few days. It changing chemicals in your BRAIN. This is bound to take awhile.

OR

B. They havent found the one for them. Like with most things, there's not one magic cure that works for EVERYONE. it can take a lot of time. Some are lucky and get the right pill for them first. But, for people like me it could take awhile. I tried 5 different anti psychotics before I foun one that eliminated my symptoms completely. Luckily though, I got the right anti depressent on the first shot.

[cheeselover]

I feel pretty offended and discouraged to read this kind of stuff, especially as I have noticed that there are a lot of people on this forum who feel depressed, and maybe who have also felt suicidal. I'm pretty concerned that this might only confuse/mislead those people even more, increase their feelings of self blame, and fuel their belief that there is something wrong with them because of the way they feel – i.e. That for the most part, there is no 'real' external reason for them to be depressed… that they feel this way just because they don't see reality clearly, aren't wise enough to think positively, aren't being "courageous" enough, or whatever.

As Steve said, lists like these would not have helped me at all when I was most depressed and suicidal. Instead I would have felt lectured to, not understood, judged, invalidated, blamed, underestimated, criticized.

I believe these are all feelings that most depressed people have already felt many times before in their life, not because they lack "knowledge, courage or foresight", but because they are surrounded by friends, family, teachers, counselors, etc. who say these kinds of things to them on a regular basis. Maybe people mean well and have good intentions, but they are still inadvertently contributing towards causing the painful feelings which lead to depression.

My belief is that people get depressed because they are in an environment that doesn't adequately meet their emotional needs. One of the most helpful things I learned when I first started researching depression, self harm, etc., was to think of depressed people as being "emotionally starving". This is where their pain is coming from, just as somebody who is starving could be said to be in pain from not getting their
physical need for food met.

I believe depression is a feeling that evolved naturally for the purpose of letting you know that there is something wrong in your life, that your psychological needs aren't being met. (Just as you might start to feel physical pain
if you are too cold, which would be your body's way of letting you know
that the temperature you are in now is not optimal for your survival.)


In my experience, people with emotional problems are very likely to have come from abusive families – physically, sexually or emotionally, or a combination of all those. I think it's hard for a lot of people to see this because the kinds of abuse they have suffered might be more socially acceptable, 'normal' and therefore less obvious. But I'm convinced it is very likely they have still grown up in families where their feelings were constantly invalidated, or they didn't get their emotional needs met as much as they needed, i.e. they didn't feel understood, cared about, free, believed in, respected, listened to, accepted, admired,

forgiven, important, etc. it's also common for them to the mistreated in school by teachers and bullied by other students.


But comments like these about depression don't help you understand this cause and effect relationship. To me, it is instead something like 'blaming the victim'.

It sounds like like the person who wrote most of these feels frustrated by past experiences with depressed people. Maybe like Steve suggested, because they have been trying to help someone who is depressed, but it ended up badly. I guess I can understand somewhat because I know it can be difficult to listen to someone who is depressed, but I really believe that with the right emotional support, someone can be helped to feel better without resorting to lecturing them with so-called "harsh truths".


This is getting a bit long, so I'll leave it at that for now, but later I might add some more stuff that is bothering me about this.

[cheeselover]

Quote:Actually depression is caused by a chemical fuck up in your brain. Yes, you can make it worse on your own. But, how it got there isn't the individuals fault.

What bothers me about the whole chemical imbalance thing is that people usually identify this as being the "cause of depression", without going further to try to understand/explain what caused the chemicals to become imbalanced in the first place. To me, this is the most important part of understanding the causes of depression.

It could be factually accurate to say that the chemicals in someone's brain are messed up, and this is why people feel depressed, but this might be kind of like an Air Crash Accident Investigator saying "the cause of this plane crash was that the plane fell out of the sky and smashed into the ground", which would be factually true, without mentioning the most important part i.e. what happened to make the plane fall out of the sky in the first place.

I feel frustrated when people talk about chemicals in the brain, instead of the abuse and other dysfunctional environments which lead to this kind of damage in the brain. I believe if people focused on the latter, we would have a much better chance of preventing depression from happening in the first place. Otherwise, it makes it sound like it's some kind of random hiccup in your brain which comes out of nowhere.

But yeah, overall I agree that it isn't the individual's fault.

[Thade_Chan]

Feeling depressed and having depression are two seperate things.

Feeling depressed is a normal emotion everyone goes through.

Getting diagnosed with depression means you've been feeling this way for at least two weeks. Sure, you might not have been depressed all your life and something triggered it. But, for it to stay that long is because there is low levels of serotonin in your brain. Most people kick the depressed feeling after a bit. This is because their relatively normal levels of serotonin allows them to.

When you don't, you are much more likely to be diagnosed with depression.
That's not to say everyone like this WILL become depressed.

Okay, let me correct myself. It's not CAUSED by messed up chemicals, but it does increase your chances by quite a bit.

It's your environment that triggers it.

[stevehein]

hi tc -can u tell us what are some of the triggers for u?

[SoulRiser]

Technically, yes, the only person who can stop you from being depressed is you. In reality it's a helluva lot harder than the list makes it sound, and people who are depressed aren't easily going to be able to change it by themselves. Not all at once anyway.

And as for the chemicals... so the brain has a whole bunch of chemicals in it, happiness triggers some of them, depression triggers others. If someone is happy all the time, you wouldn't say they have a chemical imbalance, right? Because that's a good thing. But if someone's depressed all the time, then it's a chemical imbalance? No, the chemicals are just how the brain experiences things. Treating the chemicals is like putting a bandage on a cancer... might cover it up a bit, but it doesn't fix the underlying cause of the problem, and you will always need more bandages.

[Thade_Chan]

(07-05-2013 04:51 AM)stevehein Wrote:  hi tc -can u tell us what are some of the triggers for u?

I'm not sure if you mean current things that trigger my depression or triggers that started it so here's both.

My triggers were an abusive family situation and being raped. That's what started it for me.

Triggers for now are, again, family conflict and flashbacks. But, these really more trigger me as in self harm/eating disorder ways which in turn fuels the depression, so if I give in to my triggers it becomes a vicious cycle.

[Ahab]

It is only applicable on a case by case basis, but there are legitimate coping mechanisms here -- I think depression would be the wrong word, this is better for dealing with learned helplessness. One of the problems is people with depression for the most part don't trust their own brains in the first place, and not without a measure of reason. Meditation and exercise are great anti-depressant habits to cultivate, but if you can't even trust yourself to do anything today, why would you trust yourself to successfully build a meditation and fitness regimen when most non-depressed people can't even do that?

[Thade_Chan]

(07-05-2013 11:13 AM)Ahab Wrote:  why would you trust yourself to successfully build a meditation and fitness regimen when most non-depressed people can't even do that?

Let alone that, there were times I couldn't even push myself toget out of bed and shower or eat. I was literally sleeping my life away.

[Ahab]

I've had moments where I do the same, though I tend on the more episodic side. It ebbs and flows without much of my own doing.

[Miller0700]

I would try to reply to some of you guys but the site is still trippy.

[stevehein]

(07-06-2013 03:14 PM)Miller0700 Wrote:  I would try to reply to some of you guys but the site is still trippy.

I believe it is irresponsible to post something like this and then not answer questions about it. You are messing with people's lives. I am worried about their lives. This is serious. I don't respect anyone who will not answer questions, for example, what motivated you to write this post and what is your own experience and where does your "authority" come from?

And how do you feel? How much empathy do you feel for someone who is depressed? You sound like you feel little empathy. I expect that in the past in your life, no one showed u empathy or understanding and now you are a bit "cold" towards others in similar situations. I feel sad about that, but mostly very protective of the people who are too afraid of being judged to say how they really feel here.


--
Someone told me that maybe "trippy" meant the site was unstable and hard to post on so that is why Miller didn't reply yet. If so, then sorry for making a wrong assumption and wrongly attacking...
I would really like some answers. This is a matter of life and death. I am going to post something else about this in a new thread...

[silverfang77]

I'm no expert, but in my opinion, depression must be helped by finding the source of the depression and dealing with it. If the circumstance is something that can be changed, then steps should be taken to change it. If the circumstance can't be changed, then learning how to vent the negative feelings can be beneficial, such as by writing stories, poetry, drawing pictures, playing it out in an online game or just posting about it on a forum with like-minded people.

[Miller0700]

(07-07-2013 07:21 PM)stevehein Wrote:  I believe it is irresponsible to post something like this and then not answer questions about it.

I can't do much about that. I had to log in and refresh this page three times just to reply to you alone, so cut me some slack. It may not affect you, but these forums are messed up and it only effects certain members for some reason.

Read this post for more info: http://forums.school-survival.net/showth...?tid=27996

(07-07-2013 07:21 PM)stevehein Wrote:  what motivated you to write this post

General interest in helping others.

(07-07-2013 07:21 PM)stevehein Wrote:  and what is your own experience and where does your "authority" come from?

Some months in some psych classes for one and years of experience and quiet reflection.

(07-07-2013 07:21 PM)stevehein Wrote:  And how do you feel? How much empathy do you feel for someone who is depressed?

Coming from someone who is manic-depressive (Bipolar), quite a lot.

(07-07-2013 07:21 PM)stevehein Wrote:  You sound like you feel little empathy I expect that in the past in your life, no one showed u empathy or understanding and now you are a bit "cold" towards others in similar situations. I feel sad about that, but mostly very protective of the people who are too afraid of being judged to say how they really feel here.

None of that, sorry. I'm very supportive of others, but I realized I acted to quickly and ended up being a bit too pretentious.

If I could, I would erase this whole post knowing that it upset so many people, but I can't now.

(07-07-2013 07:21 PM)stevehein Wrote:  Someone told me that maybe "trippy" meant the site was unstable and hard to post on so that is why Miller didn't reply yet..

That's exactly why.

[stevehein]

ok thanks to miller for the reply and explanations - in a way i think it is good the post is here because it is a springboard of discussion as they say.

sorry for being so harsh. maybe we can talk about this some more since u seem to really want to help pple.

psych classes worry me though. i need to write about that but here is one link on what i've written about that..

http://www.eqi.org/psychstud.htm

also, if anyone wants to study psychology to a) help people or b) understand themselves, or their dysfunctional families, (or cultures) it might be helpful to read this article by the APA -Americay Psychg Association.

http://www.apa.org/gradpsych/2012/11/right-path.aspx

I will summaraize.. it gives 5 "bad" reasons to stucy psychology. First on the list is


Bad reason #1: You just want to help people

then are there a few more like "to find a job, to bet rich"

then his one

Bad reason #5: You want to understand yourself

*shakes head. No wonder psychologists are so useless so often.

So you can (and many people do) go into psych a totally messed up person, get your degree, never understand how you got messed up, then u are given power to decide things like whether a teenager will be forced into a mental hospital or not.

It is such a fucked system.


btw - as far as i know, there is no mental health test to make sure a person getting awarded a license or degree in psychology is actually mentally healthy themselves! And I have heard of and met plenty who definitely are not.


Here is another article - but I haven't read it closely yet..

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cutt...should-not

[Miller0700]

(07-10-2013 05:43 PM)stevehein Wrote:  Bad reason #1: You just want to help people

Bad reason #5: You want to understand yourself

*shakes head. No wonder psychologists are so useless so often.

#1 is off. I do not only want to help people, I want understand them. I want to know why they do the things they do.

Though I am guilty of pursuing #5 at times. If you take your time to understand yourself then that leaves little room for your patients.

(07-10-2013 05:43 PM)stevehein Wrote:  So you can (and many people do) go into psych a totally messed up person, get your degree, never understand how you got messed up, then u are given power to decide things like whether a teenager will be forced into a mental hospital or not.

It is such a fucked system.

It gets fucked up when the psychologist gets too personal and pretentious (like what I had the mistake of doing) when trying to understand people. When you bring in person anecdotes and bias (like religious or political beliefs) into the table or your degree gets to your head and you start misdiagnosing, under-diagnosing or over-diagnosing people because your degree gives you the impression that you're better than them so you can chose their lives for them, then of course things turn to shit.

Psychology is a give and take approach. It's almost like an intimate companionship- a tight bond- between two people. You have to be willing to just listen to your patient with no filters or personal bullshit and then work together to find a solution for your patients more honestly. You offer them options and if one doesn't work, you either fix it or change to a completely different method. It's that simple.

My problem was that I was projecting my beliefs onto a medium of people whom I've never talked to let alone seen in person and offered solutions without understating anyone.

(07-10-2013 05:43 PM)stevehein Wrote:  btw - as far as i know, there is no mental health test to make sure a person getting awarded a license or degree in psychology is actually mentally healthy themselves! And I have heard of and met plenty who definitely are not.

There's should be a universal test given to future psychologists to make sure they're okay to do their job. But that's me.

Refer to above if you aren't satisfied with this one.

[Thade_Chan]

I don't understand why #1 is bad...

[SoulRiser]

It isn't a bad reason to want to become a psychologist, it's just that the process of getting a degree apparently doesn't teach you how to actually help anyone... you'd have to learn that on your own time. (Apparently - I haven't actually gone through that process at all, though I have considered it a few times).

[Thade_Chan]

I'm considering it. It's my plan C for now. I was told by my current therapist I already have more insight and would make a better therapist at 17 than most are now after working for 10 years and going to college for it. Honestly though, why it's plan C is because of college. They teach you completely wrong and I'd go in there determined not to learn anything, but I'll have to in order to get my liscence. It's something I'm very hesitant on going through. Spending all that money to basically just throw 95% of it away doesn't exactly appeal to me.

[Rule_BreakerXVIII]

Quote:5. People will only help you only if you want to be helped. Its a two way street. You can't expect to be helped by being a dick to the people who are helping you. By being rude, cynical and loud towards them then of course it will cause them to abandon you. And you'll have no one to blame for being lonely but yourself.

Nope. Judgement, alienation, etc... followed by my ever-present fear of losing my mind and becoming one with the hive. Loneliness was actually the lesser of the two evils.
Also, people have tried to help me in the past by trying to get rid of the very things that I enjoy-like reading, listening to music instead of social interaction etc. instead of ADDRESSING OR EVEN ACKNOWLEDGING THE ISSUES THAT MADE THOSE THINGS TURN INTO A COPING MECHANISM IN THE FIRST PLACE.
If only some dipshits took me being rude, cynical, etc. to them as the "Back off!" it so clearly was.

Quote:6. The only way out is through, despite how painful and scary it may be. It's the only way and there's no going back when you're in.

Vague AF.

Quote:7. Do not be afraid to ask for help or assistance when your down whether by a friend, parent or therapist. You might be seen as weak, naive or shallow by others, but it helps you in the long run.

Friends : Spied on me, reported to Turdette.
Parents: The causes of 85% of my issues.
Therapists: On said parents' payroll.

Yeah, right, asshole.


I'd apologize...but this list just pissed me off. In my experience, lots of positivity is needed to break the depression circle (Even fiction- such as anime and books- helps a lot) and not these "slapping them into reality" approaches. They don't work in more than half the cases; all they do is cause more negativity-add more shit to the pile. The people on the net have been unbelievably helpful to me, but those who I physically interact with are hopeless- that is, if they aren't adding to my issues. Overcoming depression isn't as simple as a bulleted list of points...it involves re-learning crap you've taken for granted for most of your life.

[magikarp]

Quote:1. You're not depressed because life sucks, you're depressed because your life sucks. It sounds smug and offensive, but it's true. The moment you stop blaming and projecting your problems on the world is the moment you can actually stand up and face them.

Belief in an absolute ability to control your circumstances or even your reaction to those circumstances is probably adaptive but it is also delusional. I think 'facing your problems' shouldn't preclude acknowledging that there are real constraints.

[sswbm]

Depression is subconscious recognition that you're stuck in society. The whole "chemical imbalance" thing is made up to drug people with apathyizers. Don't be propaganda-spouting tools, Miller, timf, Thade and the others.

[the Analogist]

Since all situations have unique features, so too should the solution have different features. We don't have so many threads on this site because generic solutions are useful.

An honest confidant who can actually be trusted is extremely hard to come by. Actually trusting them is sometimes even harder based on how your past experience has lead you to trust people. The usefulness of that confidant will also be limited if for no other reason than for the fact that they are human too.

We all as individuals should enforce on ourselves the rule that all conversations are in confidence. This is hard, be at least WE can become trustworthy this way.

As for people who are depressed in some way. Post it here with details. Readers, be constructive, sympathetic. Nobody knows everything and everybody comes in with a limited experience and knowledge base.