Enough is Enough

[mrtuesday]

L Wrote:Learn by doing, not sitting down and forcing things into your mind. I can actually remember having to sit there and just stare at the flash cards I was made to have by a teacher, because I was going to be tested. Instead of sitting there and forcing it upon yourself, it should happen naturally, like something you kinda "Pick Up" along the way. What I mean by that is, you are doing a math problem. 7 X 9 for example. You sit there, and try to figure it out, if you can't you refer back to the table. You move onto the next problem. Eventually, you pick up that 7 X 9 = 63. When I learn things like that, I normally don't forget them, and thus, I have learned.

When I have to sit down, and force information into my head, I forget them. Ask me what last week's "Spelling Words" were, even though I recieved a 100% on the test, I couldn't tell you.

There's no need to pick it up along the way if you already know it. School is about preparing people for the future. Learning mathematics from a comprehensive course that covers everything we have collectively decided is necessary to live life to its fullest is not only more efficient but makes more logical sense than telling people to figure it out as they go along.

Schools need to teach reading, math, science, et cetera. If you concede that there are things every person should know, it only follows that we should teach these people all together so that they can all reap the benefits of education.

People may not realize that they need to know something at the moment, but that doesn't mean that they won't need it in the future.

The fact that you didn't retain the information that the school imparted to you is your fault, not theirs. Education is a shared responsibility between the student and the teacher.

Wouldn't the entire process have made more sense if in school you were already taught the multiplication tables for when you would need them later on rather than learning EVERYTHING by ear?

Pieman Wrote:I SEE WHAT YOU DID THAR.

Every time we pose a point that Killjoy has no answer to, he completely ignores it.

I'm sorry that I can't respond evenly to every person in this topic. I'm all alone in this corner; should anyone care to join my side of the argument, be my guest. I'm not consciously trying to ignore anyone, I just can't dedicate the time to respond to every post in this 13-odd page long topic.

HALCYON DREAMS Wrote:Shit, I'm not saying that school brainwashes people. I'm not saying that school isn't beneficial, as people do learn there. What I AM saying is, it's not the best way to get an education. People should be educated in a much wider range of subjects, and be taught to appreciate different forms of culture more. I mean, there's more than the few rudimentary things that school teaches you out there. And putting people in a school environment where it's next to impossible to really develop as a human being is a damn waste of humanity. We're putting people out there who haven't been taught to question the things they've seen on TV, who haven't ever tried to hold their beliefs up to criticism, who've barely seen what a healthy human relationship looks like.

Lazy people who deliberately choose to be ignorant will not change, regardless of what the school throws at them. For the rest of us, school has much to offer.

I challenge the notion that it's impossible to develop as a human being in a school environment. School is just an exaggerated microcosm of the real world but with an underlying intention to teach. Like the real world, there are some bad people and unfortunately there's nothing we can do about it. That said, we can't let a few rotten apples spoil the whole bunch.

School makes an honest attempt to teach people critical thinking skills, but whether people react is their own problem. In my Social Studies class, the teacher would constantly remind us to consider point-of-view and bias in everything we read, regardless of whether it was for the class or not. If there's one thing I can say with deep conviction, it's that school will have a profound positive effect on people if they put the necessary effort in.

Now, like anything else, some schools are better than others. I was fortunate enough to attend some of the better ones. I'm all for reforming the ones that can't measure up. Whether they have gang problems, drugs, or just bad teachers. The crux of it is that we can't and shouldn't fight the system; we need to fight the weak links.

As it stands, schools are a fact of life. I happen to think that they're a necessary fact of life, but some would disagree. I understand where you're coming from, but it's better to help them rather than hurt them. Many school administrators, teachers, etc. are in it for the right reasons. If we're going to improve education, we need to cooperate. And if that is this website's true aim, I agree wholeheartedly.

Quote:I mean, yeah, school teaches you some basic things as far as math, science, English, etc. goes. But it leaves out so very much. And that's harming our society as a whole. We need to make sure that students leave school not feeling institutionalized, but enlightened. Not faceless and uncared for, but like they have a real value as a person. Not tired and weary of absorbing new information and learning, but ready and willing to contribute to society as an actual human being, instead of just as a worker.

School has to leave out some things. It has to cater to everyone, and it does a better job than we give it credit for most of the time. The subjects it doesn't cover, students can and should pursue on their own. School's aim is to teach everyone the basic concepts required to lead a full life, and it succeeds.

People who see themselves as nothing more than a worker have a striking self-esteem deficiency. Schools can't do everything, but they do try. Guidance counselors, pupil personnel services, the list goes on. The education system has been taking care to help its students' psychological well being.

Schools have to equip people with the skills they need to live in today's world. For most people, that includes getting a job so that you have the resources to do what you want to do. They aren't trying to create mindless workers. They're trying to create self-sufficient, smart people capable of making their own decisions.

Quote:Our society needs innovation and free thought, which is something that should pervade our culture instead of being restricted to the very educated. I mean, we've got a school system that does a fine job of churning out people into the workforce, but they're neglecting to help their students develop in other ways which are just as important to a well-functioning human being.

I certainly agree that free thought and innovation are important. But the complete evolution of our culture must start with us; not with them. To say that they're churning people out is, as we both know, ridiculous. People coming out of the school system have the basic knowledge to pursue whatever avenues they want to in life. They just haven't gotten there yet.

Schools are required to teach academics. Spending more time on character ed, citizenship, singing Kumbaya, whatever, will only make its primary focus that much more difficult. Students will inevitably develop those other traits; we all did. It's just a matter of time. People mature at different speeds, it's part of what makes us all different.

Also, yay for Huey Freeman.

assaultmedic Wrote:So teachers arent part of this huge conspiracy to brainwash us, that doesnt fix the situation. The problem is that most teachers are not prefect. While some are very sucessful with the normal teaching methods and actually interest their students, other teachers end up boring their students and making them forget anything they have learned. For example, my robotics teacher has an open ended class where he gives us a challenge and we figure out different ways to fo that. This class is very exciting to most of the students in it. We have learned skills in programming, mechanical engineering, and electronics, all very useful skills. Meanwhile my biology teacher gives long note taking sessions, poorly explains how to do labs, assigns too much work in too little time, and acts bitchy towards her students. A majority of her students hate her and have a hard time trying to pass her class and forget anything she teaches. It is not some conspiracy but instead poor teaching methods that are hurting us. Telling us "just to man up and deal with it" is a dumb idea. Tell that to the people that lose a third of their income every year to our poorly run government. They would most likely ignore you and keep on complaining about taxes they have to pay.

I think we're all in agreement that good teachers need to be rewarded for their efforts and bad teachers need to be penalized. The main issue here are the damned teachers unions that greatly over-complicate this process. The cornerstone of a free, capitalist economy is that those who do well are rewarded and those who fail aren't. It's survival of the fittest; there needs to be competition for there to be success. With unions messing with this formula, we get the tenure-protected fuck-ups you read about in the news.

Quote:But saying that school introduces you to all walks of life is wrong. School introduces you to whatever they teach and whatever choices they give you. Most students have to take certain classes which are a state or district requirement. After those classes they are only given a few choices on what electives to take. Sometimes the choices are restricted and the elective offerings are far from "all walks of life". The bell-schedule is not bad depending on your point of view, the test are though. If the test is made by the teacher, and if the students are actually interested, they get a real assesment which is not a bad thing. If the test is made by the district or state it is not a real assesment. The test may cover things not taught in class, may be very poorly written, or subject to human/governmental errors. These kinds of tests cause unnecessary stress and do net create a true assessment of the student.

Again this hearkens back to the problem of some teachers simply being incompetent. But then, why don't you guys fight the NEA rather than the school system itself? It just confuses me.

I happen to think that a well-thought-out test is a good learning tool. But as we are all well-aware, tools can be misused. It's the teacher's job to use them properly, and when they fail they need to be punished.

I think that state tests and the whole NCLB thing is a load of bollocks. That said, the school system itself shows great promise. We just need to let it shine through.

Quote:It is also your choice to consider what is an illusion. Illusion is just a word that can be attached to anything to give it a negative meaning. It his choice to consider the school system an illusion.

relativist fallacy...

Quote:This reaction was based on many previous incidents where people made a post like yours. People have made those kinds of post and have later been caught to be faking it or trying to actually troll the board. The person you quoted, as far as i know, is not some paranoid skeptic thinking nothing is real. We also dont believe we are fighting the forces of evil, we simply wish to see an improvement in the education system because we are not interested by what we are taught. The supposed merits of school are going to college were you can get a diploma and then get a good job. Not everyone is interested in this "merit" of eventually making lots of money.

I see.

I just happen to think that we need reform, not a complete restart. As for the matter of money, I agree. People who go about life just looking for financial gain are misguided and wasting the precious little time they have on this planet. That said, we all need some money to live. Not everyone is going to become a neurosurgeon and spend seven years in college. That's why we have the choice of our post-secondary education. It's meant to be tailored to the students' specific career path. In that respect, it's perfectly acceptable.

Now, whether colleges charge too much is a different matter.

Quote:Deciding whats good for you doesnt mean you have to live in a bubble. He can if he wants andit doesnt have to be in the desert. He was not trying to demote civilization either. He just stated that he decides whats good for himself. He did not say anything about anarchy or chaos. Also anarchy does not mean chaos or lack of civilization, it means absense of government.

Yes, but to live in a society we all need to make some sacrifices. Most people consider it well worth the trade-off. I know that anarchy doesn't necessarily lead to chaos, but the problem is that more often than not it does. Without a governing body explaining to people what practices are permitted and what aren't, other people will seize control and decide those things in its place. Then we end up with a dictatorship and it all goes to hell.

Quote:Once again his response is based on the belief that you are trying to troll the board. The hostility youre seeing should have been expected. What would you expect to see if a democrat tries to promote his party at a republican convention, or if a religous person preaches to athiests. Always expect hostility when arguing the opposing argument to someone.

I would have been totally alright with some people saying "Well, I disagree. Still, thanks for your input. I'd love to explain why we think x, y, and z." The whole "stick your finger in an electrical socket" thing and TrueAnarchist being a retard just caught me off guard.

Meh, I was always a fan of my school's Debate Club. I'm a sucker for this kind of thing.

SoulRiser Wrote:Why, on a site aimed at people who are not being adequately served by public schooling, would we not be prescribing homeschooling and the like? That wouldn't really make much sense. And that isn't even entirely true, we have a whole section on dealing with school if you can't leave as well, and that section was there first. I only added the alternatives stuff later, I figured it wasn't necessary for a long time because there were so many other sites with that focus. But now that we do have that info, yes, I am emphasizing it. Why? 'Cause a lot of the kids who visit this site actually don't know about that stuff. Sure, they may have heard of homeschooling or maybe some of the other stuff, but most people who come here are not actually looking for that stuff. So I make it stand out so they know about it.

The main problem is that kids who are just having issues in school and not issues with school will get the wrong idea. That's the only point I was making. Not everyone is cut out for autodidactism. Some people just don't have the motivation, the resources, the ability, the direction.

The Avenger Wrote:Killjoy has realized that his points cannot counter ours and is merely ignoring our superior contradictions.

*facepalm*

psychopath Wrote:The baby analogy doesn't make sense, because the small mistakes people make while learning freely are not "catastrophic".

Also, the absence of school doesn't mean that everyone will be teaching themselves. There are other alternatives to school and once school is gone these alternatives will most likely prosper.

On top of that, what most of us want here is not the destruction of school, but an end to mandatory schooling.

The fact is that small mistakes add up. People may not end up with the skills that their friend who went through school have. If you aren't good at math and it annoys you, are you really going to pursue it of your own volition rather than learning about things you find easier? Of course not. Then the problem arises that you may not have the skills you need later on, and by the time you realize it, it's too late.

Yes, there are other alternatives to school. Whether they are viable is another discussion entirely.

I understand that many of you don't want school to be mandatory. Nevertheless, it's better to equip everyone for the future with the skills that acclaimed educators have deemed important to success later on in life rather than hope that people will assume the responsibility themselves.

Faby Wrote:No, but it'll be over for us soon. Hard to think of those who just started school, or are going to start school in the future.

*weeps for those nameless and cursed children*

You are making the assuredly false assumption that they will find school as unbearable as you did. Let them make up their own minds before swooping in to save the day.

Calling school a curse is melodramatic and unnecessary.