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A professor who knows school is dumb? - the Analogist - 07-11-2016 12:47 PM

I just came upon this after a long while. I bought the book years ago when I still considered being an academic.

The book is "Clueless in Academe"
http://geraldgraff.com/clueless-in-academe/

Not sure if anybody here would enjoy reading a more establishment perspective on what we seem to agree about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Graff


A professor who knows school is dumb? - The man - 04-20-2017 08:49 PM

Cool


A professor who knows school is dumb? - James Comey - 04-21-2017 01:58 AM

Damn


RE: A professor who knows school is dumb? - brainiac3397 - 04-21-2017 02:51 AM

Lots of profs are smart enough and experienced enough to know the bullshit. Unfortunately, they are rarely keen to do anything about it and dont usually do much about it beyond perhaps acknowledging its fucked up(and we will just have to deal with it).


A professor who knows school is dumb? - James Comey - 04-21-2017 04:50 AM

This is pretty much the sentiment I got from most teachers back in the day.


A professor who knows school is dumb? - brainiac3397 - 04-21-2017 01:50 PM

I've met professors and graduate assistants. They're not usually hesitant to mention this, especially if they're not on campus grounds(I was at a international affairs conference). It's generally the administrators and the accreditors who dumb things down and make shit worse.


A professor who knows school is dumb? - James Comey - 04-21-2017 02:14 PM

How so? Do they remove content or something?


A professor who knows school is dumb? - brainiac3397 - 04-22-2017 01:09 PM

Well administrators are generally their bosses or, being the bureaucracy, capable of sticking a wrench in the professors' ability to operate effectively. In the end, the admins are the ones controlling the budget, the staffing, the class room placement, and all the "administrative" stuff the professors need.

As for accreditors, those fuckers tend to prevent any kind of progressive reform in colleges by stepping in and shitting over any such attempt. The entire purpose of accreditors seems to be to make sure colleges don't innovate. It happened at my college. They came up with an innovative thing that'd reduce class time on-campus but still ensure we learned the topic(by "outsourcing" to extracurricular stuff as required by the specific professors).

Accreditors came in though and were like "nah, can't do this" and completely fucked up the schedules. In other words, the only job of accredidation is to prevent change by forcing schools to adhere to narrow guidelines in return for access to federal aid money. Thus, you can't innovate unless you risk losing students who rely on financial aid from the government.


A professor who knows school is dumb? - James Comey - 04-22-2017 03:59 PM

Shit, things are that desperate aren't they?


RE: A professor who knows school is dumb? - TheCancer - 04-22-2017 04:21 PM

No one understands the idiocy of our schools better than instructors. I get that as students you're experiencing it first hand but to really understand how institutionally ingrained the foolishness (or even viciousness) it all is you have to work there. Get a group of teachers behind closed doors and all you hear about is how horrid it all is. All the same bureaucratic oppressiveness inflicted on students is inflicted on teachers as well. We're forced to be awful people in order to keep our jobs. That's kindergarten through college.


A professor who knows school is dumb? - James Comey - 04-22-2017 05:27 PM

Yeah it sounds like teachers want to improve things but can't because of bullshittery going on in the higher ups.


RE: A professor who knows school is dumb? - TheCancer - 04-22-2017 09:36 PM

It's like going to prison for 8 hours a day (without the sexual violence, hopefully)


A professor who knows school is dumb? - Rule_BreakerXVIII - 04-23-2017 04:08 AM

The problem is, that while a lot of people are aware of this they do nothing about it. They either don't recognize the scale on which school (and its substandard, mediocre approach to learning) affects people or don't care because they aren't affected much personally.


RE: A professor who knows school is dumb? - TheCancer - 04-23-2017 05:21 AM

I'm personally exhausted and have decided to give up on it.


RE: A professor who knows school is dumb? - James Comey - 04-23-2017 07:41 AM

(04-22-2017 09:36 PM)TheCancer Wrote:  It's like going to prison for 8 hours a day (without the sexual violence, hopefully)

Unfortunately it happens more often than not...


A professor who knows school is dumb? - brainiac3397 - 04-23-2017 10:30 AM

It gets worse. The graduate assistants I met had problems with getting paid and getting time to do research. Supposedly the tenured/senior professors would dump the classwork on them, and they already tend to get shit pay and no guaranteed schedule, and not being able to do research is like a death sentence for folk trying to finish their graduate studies.

It's a "shit downwards" system and the students tend to be at the bottom of the barrel.


RE: A professor who knows school is dumb? - TheCancer - 04-23-2017 11:20 AM

Also if you can't research you're not really using the time to learn anything that might be marketable. I'm thinking of going back to college but I'm not doing that TA/ internship garbage. If I go back it's going to be a monomaniacal attempt use their resources to discover something marketable and patentable. I don't care about the degree. I need some kind of break. I need to go for broke. This life is killing me.


A professor who knows school is dumb? - James Comey - 04-23-2017 12:15 PM

Going for broke is probably the best mentality you can have. I've learned to always like the odds, no matter how slim.


RE: A professor who knows school is dumb? - the Analogist - 04-29-2017 01:08 PM

i always wanted to follow all the tracks of Gatto's research and see how much of it he made up. i have reason to believe some of it is made up


RE: A professor who knows school is dumb? - the Analogist - 04-29-2017 01:14 PM

I went U of I in Urbana which has one of the biggest libraries im the US. I heard they have a copy of the original book of mormon before the racism was revised out.


RE: A professor who knows school is dumb? - TheCancer - 04-29-2017 02:22 PM

(04-29-2017 01:08 PM)the Analogist Wrote:  i always wanted to follow all the tracks of Gatto's research and see how much of it he made up. i have reason to believe some of it is made up

That seemed a little out of the blue but I think he's mostly a fraud. I KNOW you have to be very bloated and self-serving to win those big teacher of the year awards and then he jumped on a platform that has this weird tendency to cater to the Christian Right. I say that because he repeatedly attacks the teaching of evolution. The real truth is that if you're sane and opposed to compulsory education you shouldn't pander to the Jesus Freaks giving them a near monopoly on the anti-schooling movement.

Even though John Holt's ideas are almost entirely anecdotal and trying to implement them in the classroom has been professional suicide for me, I still think he is far more sincere than Gatto.


RE: A professor who knows school is dumb? - the Analogist - 04-30-2017 01:31 AM

I did verify the Alexander Inglis quotes, the guy from Houghton Miflin. Also, the Norman Dodd story about how the Carnegie foundation created the American Historical Society to hand pick people whose version of history they want propagated.

there is also a lot of overlap with Noam Chomsky's more legitimate research on propaganda


RE: A professor who knows school is dumb? - TheCancer - 04-30-2017 01:51 AM

You're saying Chomsky and Gatto have a lot of common ground?


A professor who knows school is dumb? - James Comey - 04-30-2017 03:21 AM

He's referring to Alexander Inglis; if you haven't followed we discussed him on another thread that Inglis was one of the very first people to have an anti-school publication around the 1910s. The weird thing about Inglis is that information on him is relatively scarce, although this isn't very surprising given how many publications are out there and the era he lived in.


RE: A professor who knows school is dumb? - the Analogist - 04-30-2017 09:27 AM

his publication was anti-school? i thought Inglis was an establishment voice advocating for school? did you actually get a chance to look up his book then hans?

also, Gatto borrows a bit from Chomsky. ive read only one section from a single Gatto book and I found a really out of context piece of Islamic history that was just plain wrong. also in the same lecture where he mentioned he loved driving drunk he also claimed that Muslims dont clap but they click their tongues...

Ive only ever LISTENED to Gatto and Chomsky. not sure about Gatto being a fraud, but I take that the same like OJ Simpson and Bill Cosby. the Naked Gun movies are still funny and so is Cosby


A professor who knows school is dumb? - James Comey - 04-30-2017 11:20 AM

and Michael Jackson's music is still awesome.

But yeah, I actually forgot about the damn book, excuse me. It was a while when you made the post but thanks for clearing it up.


RE: A professor who knows school is dumb? - the Analogist - 04-30-2017 12:58 PM

michael jackson never touched any dang boys dammit. you dont have more than 20 years to prepare for trial and then have your witnesses stories fall apart and get a clear not guilty conviction... jeez!

to be honest Hans, it sounded like that book was pro establishment. i did get my hands on it one time and it read very much like that.

Gatti strikes me as modtly genuine but probably throws in some made up stuff for fun or for effect. like Dave Chapelle's story about the baby selling weed. He talked about that on Oprah. it was a great interview btw.

i dont care if somebody is as a person with or without integrity. i have a wide experience base to judge information and i am critical enough to not fall for some REAL bullshit. it doesnt mean i know everything or enough, but its a process ive been working on for awhile


RE: A professor who knows school is dumb? - TheCancer - 05-01-2017 05:32 AM

Quote:he mentioned he loved driving drunk

Was he attempting stand up?


RE: A professor who knows school is dumb? - the Analogist - 05-01-2017 01:39 PM

he frequently has bits of humor interspersed like any good speaker. my fascination with him is for the fact that in the roughly 40 hours of lectures i have of his he is surprisingly non-redundant. I feel like a number of his stories would be difficult to verify, but plausibility is established sometimes through the same source the information comes from. the politics of government and business are different only in the sense of where the funding comes from, as an example.

i doubt he is a fraud as you say, just based on his lectures, but as far as his facts are concerned, i am sure there is some degree of misrepresentation and possibly a small degree of lying. nonetheless, the framework he lays out is highly congruous with the conclusions chomsky draws about the media, except that chomsky sees the media as the big picture with education as a footnote where gatto focuses on school as the big picture.

I do believe his research and experience are mostly genuine, but I give less weight to facts than their explanation and whether it is congruous with my own experience. especially when i see elliptical and incoherent opposition lacking detail i am far more inclined to side with those whose explanations are more explanatory.

have you read any of my musings? anybody? I want critical feedback and engagement. I'm not trying to keep it a clean blog or anything


A professor who knows school is dumb? - TheCancer - 05-01-2017 01:54 PM

Fraud was probably too strong a word. I'm getting to where I distrust everyone.