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banning vs listening/understanding - stevehein - 02-17-2015 09:39 AM

here is an idea...

as i said the other day i am not a fan of banning and warnings.

but i am a fan of listening, understanding.

so here is how i would apply that here at ss.

mediators/understanders

vs traditional moderators. tm's

tm's typically warn and ban pple. but they don't try to mediate interpersonal conflicts - ic's lets say.

i dont like the typical "justice" system and forums are even worse.

what i mean by that is this...

i have personally been banned from a couple of forums. with almost no explanation and with no recourse/appeal process.

once i was banned for asking the moderator how she felt about my post haha im serious, sr knows the story but to refresh her memory it was the site called outofthefog.

first i got some kind of warning so i asked the warner how she felt when she read my post and how she was feeling as she was sending me the warning. haha

then i was banned totally. lol

i was also banned at either democracy now or democratic underground - i forget which - i think because i said i feel controlled and i was disagreeing with the mainstream vviews about gun control and because i was criticizing the rules.

so anyhow, i know how it feels to be banned /rejected/ expelled/ etc

i feel bad when someone from here gets banned. i am not sure what happened with potato for example but he and i had our fights last year and i think he might have ended up getting banned. but today i found a post by him about god which i actually thanked him for.

we can learn something from everyone, everywhere. that is part of why i dont like banning. i have written a long time ago that u will never understand someone by punishing them.

and we all need to feel understood, accepted. and valued.

pple come here cuz they have shitty lives. myself included. so i feel bad knowing we would make their life shittier by banning/punishing them. and by not helping fill some of their essential emotional needs like feeling understood, accepted

im gonna save this as part one..


banning vs listening/understanding - stevehein - 02-17-2015 09:48 AM

part 2

now i also know that sr is at her limit of dealing with stuff here. today she told me she banned some pple for a day for example .i can understand that cuz i banned a group of pple one day on this chat site i had - later one guy, named ryan, got very aggresive with me and i ended up just shutting the whole thing down cuz i didnt have time for the drama, etc.

so i feel very understanding of using bans to make life simpler.

yet i still feel bad. now i will admit i dont have the time, or lets say i am not willing to invest the time to be a mediator here. but i will share my ideas on how it would work and "coach" someone who would want to learn from me or my site on how to listen/mediate.

i think this wold be a great thing to try on ss. and it could be a model for other forums, all of which wil have similar problems. most will ban pple a lot faster than here.

i would like to ask who has been banned on other forums and how it felt btw

i would really like to help make this a place where pple learn some practical, very valuable life skills so it will be much more than just surviving the forced schooling years.

and i would like to see this place be a place where i personally felt safe

one way to make it safer for me personally is to ban pple who i feel unsafe of. - not sure if that is gramatically correct!)

but i would not feel totally good about that.... so anyhow thats it for now

part 3 -- i want to say i dont eally want the power to ban pple... i had that before and it is too easy. it goes to your head as they say


banning vs listening/understanding - SoulRiser - 02-17-2015 10:03 AM

I'd like to have a mediator thing here. I don't want to be one of the mediators though. What would happen with people who are just posting hostile stuff all over the place? I mean... do we let them continue that while trying to mediate, or do we stop them from being able to post for a while at least? Isn't that pretty much the same as a kind of punishment though... even though the main reason it would be done is for damage control?


banning vs listening/understanding - Ky - 02-17-2015 10:15 AM

I've been thinking about what it means to ban someone for quite some time now, and I've come to a conclusion:

When a moderator, or someone of similar status, bans a user from the premises of a website, forum, or similar online structure, they aren't infringing on that user's rights - membership in any community is a privilege, not a right. They aren't necessarily corrupt or wrong to drive users away and prohibit their return (though they can be, and not all bans are issued in response to a violation of the terms of service).

No, the message behind a ban is this sentiment: "You are not welcome here. We are/I am not willing to hear you out. Find another community."

The question is, why would a moderator/administrator/whatever want to, essentially, tell someone that message and cast them out?

Well, there are a number of reasons, none of which are easy to list or describe. Perhaps the user failed, in the eyes of the moderator, to conform to the standards of a community. Perhaps the moderator is attempting to eliminate imagined threats to their position. Or perhaps the user has outright violated the terms and conditions of the website and made no effort to reform.

In any of these cases, one party or another would appear to be the one in the wrong. As for appearances, it would seem that a forum or website that does not ban users very often could be considered open-minded, whereas those that engage in the process on a regular basis could be deemed closed-minded. The truth is a little more complex than that.

This leads to another question, one that I would hope our whole community could come to an understanding on: Existing rules notwithstanding, what should be the standards for helper/moderator/administrator action? What determines when it is right to warn a user, to hide their posts, or to ban them from School Survival?


RE: banning vs listening/understanding - stevehein - 02-17-2015 11:24 AM

(02-17-2015 10:03 AM)SoulRiser Wrote:  I'd like to have a mediator thing here. I don't want to be one of the mediators though. What would happen with people who are just posting hostile stuff all over the place? I mean... do we let them continue that while trying to mediate, or do we stop them from being able to post for a while at least? Isn't that pretty much the same as a kind of punishment though... even though the main reason it would be done is for damage control?

k here are my thoughts...

1. ha ha to u dont want to be a mediator. lol i understand like 10 out of 10 on that.

2. what to do with pple in the meantime? my thought, yeah temporary bans make sense. i personally would feel a lot better about a temporary ban while someone tries to mediate than a get out of here forever ban.

that way they still have a voice. to have ur voice taken away feels really fucking painful in my experience. its the kind of thing that leads directly to actual violence id say in fact.

rosenberg talked about protective use of force i think he called it. but its tricky between punishment and protection cuz the temp banned person might still feel punished... so its tricky. but it seems like a good option to me.


banning vs listening/understanding - stevehein - 02-17-2015 12:13 PM

some more thoughts...

it seems one thing to consider is how important it is to a person to be able to be part of this "community". for example, im thinking what if no one wants to be the mediator? but someone needs to be banned? what if they were really willing to try to learn some new ways of communicating so they could stay? like what if they were asked if they would want to learn some mediation, listening, conflict resolution skills?

me for example, before i realized how bad i was at listening and talking about feelings, i didnt know it was even important. but if the girl i loved, for example, karen, would have said look the only way we can keep going is if u learn some new things.. then i very well might have said ok, i am willing to try. -- because she was that important to me.

if someone is given a chance to do something and they voluntarily choose not to do it, then i am pretty sure it is less painful than being controlled with a ban and no voice in the matter.

i dont think many pple will say yeah i am wiling to learn because this forum is really important to me. but at least we could try it.

they actually are the ones who need to learn the most so it would be very cool if they did learn and then taught others and became the mediators themselves. few pple would believe how much i have changed but i know that i have and thus i know what is possible.

one of my main beliefs is we all need to care about everyone, even those we would ban. they are still humans, still have feelings and in fact are in a lot of pain. it is pretty well known now that pple who want to hurt others have been hurt and are hurting. all their life they have lacked someone who really cared about them, really accepted them, really listened to them, really understood and supported them.

so they are hurting. a lot or most of them won't realize why they are hurting and many will insist they came from a loving family, and they will get very defensive and aggressive when someone like me tries to point out that their family wasnt as good as they want to believe. i have seen it happen enough to feel quite sure of this. so anyhow, for several reasons i dont feel real optimistic, but i do feel a bit optimistic and think its worth a try.

as a practical matter i would say we start with asking if there is anyone who would want to learn how to be a mediator. i feel pretty sure someone will be willing to give it a try. and it is simple enough to learn some basic skills from the net. and as i said i would be willing to help coach someone. i would also be willing to oversee what the current moderators are doing in terms of how they warn or ban pple. i think sr and i could come up with some guidelines on how to gently warn or gently temp ban someone. i feel especially optimistic about this cuz we just had a very mutually satisfying convo. i helped her with something important to her and it went very smoothly. sr seems to really get and support some of my fundamental beliefs about how to treat pple in an ideal world. so yeah, right now im feeling fairly optimistic.


RE: banning vs listening/understanding - stevehein - 02-17-2015 12:36 PM

(02-17-2015 10:15 AM)DoA Wrote:  ....what should be the standards for helper/moderator/administrator action? What determines when it is right to warn a user, to hide their posts, or to ban them from School Survival

good questions.. one thought is that since this is SR's site it is mostly up to her how to answer these.

if i understand her right, she is not a huge fan of direct democracy. and i know i am not. so for me at least i would definitely not want to ask pple to vote on things like the rules and when to warn/ban someone.

im not sure if doa was really thinking in terms of direct democracy when he said

"This leads to another question, one that I would hope our whole community could come to an understanding on..."

but it sounds close to it, which worries me. Most pple think it's perfectly fine to really punish people, and I don't just mean to protect someone else, but to make them an example and to "teach them a lesson."

I feel sure that if we did a poll and asked how many people believe it is ok or necessary to punish children or adults to get them to behave "appropriately" (read "as someone else wants them to") we would find most people do believe that about punishment. So with that level of thinking, it is unlikely we will get a more enlightened approach to how to handle things here on ss if we try to get a consensus from the whole ss community. Anyhow I would say most pple dont really even want to get involved in these discussions. So they would not be motivated to get informed about all the issues and we would get what basically all democracies turn into, and that would not be a "good" thing. IE Corruption, abuse of power, injustice, hypocrisy etc. *shivers at the thought...


banning vs listening/understanding - Ky - 02-17-2015 12:51 PM

Direct democracy isn't the only way to get everyone's opinion. Besides, we're not like other forums.


banning vs listening/understanding - brainiac3397 - 02-17-2015 01:00 PM

We need objectivism(not Ayn Rand...though I guess that could be a useful philosophy somewhere sometime).

I consider myself pretty objective and reason-based, even if personally I'm a bit eccentric and radical. Course my forum helper status is fine by me. With whatever powers I do have, I can deal with most things(I can't remember how to edit posts but it's not like something I've ever needed so whatever). If necessary I'll split stuff, then ya'll can continue your battles in the split.

I only lock duplicates(and rarely spam depending on how many times it pops up).

Point I'm making is we don't need a mod special forces or gestapo. We just need a tiny militia to keep things orderly. We need a few farmers with pitchforks, not Rambos.(with Soul being the only Rambo/Chuck Norris). If anyone else wants to mediate, they can mediate as long as they don't mediate with their powers(unless by mediate you mean vaporize spam,quarantine malevolent trolls, ban Duelix)


banning vs listening/understanding - SoulRiser - 02-19-2015 11:41 AM

Quote:if someone is given a chance to do something and they voluntarily choose not to do it, then i am pretty sure it is less painful than being controlled with a ban and no voice in the matter.

i dont think many pple will say yeah i am wiling to learn because this forum is really important to me. but at least we could try it.
I like this idea.

Without mediators, we could send them a list of links that they could then learn from (which will most likely be somewhere on eqi.org... Giggle ).

How patient exactly should we be about how long it takes them to get better?


banning vs listening/understanding - GamerGurl - 05-12-2015 03:19 AM

I feel that some people—I'll just put it that way—do deserve their bans and infractions. A group of people that used to frequent this forum and decided to come back mainly to troll have a tendency to play with fire and will do so purposefully. Hard to learn from people who have the mentality of shitheads.

I now rarely ever moderate these people. Instead I just fling their riff-raff right back at them, so they get a direct reflection at how they're treating others with their insulting, apathy, hostile and passive-aggressive behavior.


banning vs listening/understanding - Ky - 05-12-2015 04:15 AM

...Oh boy, here we go...


RE: banning vs listening/understanding - thewake - 05-12-2015 04:43 AM

(05-12-2015 04:15 AM)DoA Wrote:  ...Oh boy, here we go...



Watch on YouTube


RE: banning vs listening/understanding - Alistoriv - 05-12-2015 08:24 AM

(05-12-2015 03:19 AM)SirMarty Wrote:  I feel that some people—I'll just put it that way—do deserve their bans and infractions. A group of people that used to frequent this forum and decided to come back mainly to troll have a tendency to play with fire and will do so purposefully. Hard to learn from people who have the mentality of shitheads.

I now rarely ever moderate these people. Instead I just fling their riff-raff right back at them, so they get a direct reflection at how they're treating others with their insulting, apathy, hostile and passive-aggressive behavior.
just say dne man lmao


banning vs listening/understanding - Ky - 05-12-2015 08:40 AM

Alright, since the can of worms is open, I might as well share my thoughts:

School Survival is home to individuals who are, or can be, slow to listen to and understand others, and these very same individuals seem to feel entitled to protection from being banned. I would like to add that there are such individuals on both sides of the "hugbox" and "edgy" dichotomy - indeed, I'm one of the worst kinds when I'm in one of my more insufferable moods.


RE: banning vs listening/understanding - GamerGurl - 05-12-2015 11:06 AM

(05-12-2015 08:40 AM)DoA Wrote:  Alright, since the can of worms is open, I might as well share my thoughts:

School Survival is home to individuals who are, or can be, slow to listen to and understand others, and these very same individuals seem to feel entitled to protection from being banned. I would like to add that there are such individuals on both sides of the "hugbox" and "edgy" dichotomy - indeed, I'm one of the worst kinds when I'm in one of my more insufferable moods.
One of the obvious and major differences here is that unlike them, you're one of the members who don't play with fire and try to harass or blatantly attack others.

Their entitlement is also unwarranted and not welcome. These individuals haven't even earned any ounce of "free speech" or respect or lenient moderation due to purposefully trying to get on other people's nerves and lacking any bit of sympathy and compassion to actually help others at least try to cope with their RL situations.


banning vs listening/understanding - Ky - 05-12-2015 11:15 AM

I'm glad you think so, because I disagree with your assertion that you need to stoop to their level in order to get through to them. In case you haven't been able to tell already, insults don't really accomplish all that much.

Things need to get more real around here. I've seen the DnE crowd complain that I've made assumptions about their intentions more than once, and it seems they assume that a more positive atmosphere is somehow against the interests of free speech, so I think it would be in our collective interest to explain ourselves to one another. It's a lot harder to cast aspersions at someone's motivations if you have a clear picture of what they are, after all.

I've noticed, in fact, that many of these older users have been trying to be sympathetic and compassionate, particularly in the ES&V subforum. It's just that there's, well, room for improvement...

So the question I'd like to ask everyone is: What do you think the problem here is?


RE: banning vs listening/understanding - GamerGurl - 05-12-2015 11:30 AM

(05-12-2015 11:15 AM)DoA Wrote:  I'm glad you think so, because I disagree with your assertion that you need to stoop to their level in order to get through to them. In case you haven't been able to tell already, insults don't really accomplish all that much.

Things need to get more real around here. I've seen the DnE crowd complain that I've made assumptions about their intentions more than once, and it seems they assume that a more positive atmosphere is somehow against the interests of free speech, so I think it would be in our collective interest to explain ourselves to one another. It's a lot harder to cast aspersions at someone's motivations if you have a clear picture of what they are, after all.

I've noticed, in fact, that many of these older users have been trying to be sympathetic and compassionate, particularly in the ES&V subforum. It's just that there's, well, room for improvement...

So the question I'd like to ask everyone is: What do you think the problem here is?
Well in my opinion it seems like actual transperancy in communication isn't getting through them either, so I'm left with no other choice. Yeah, my sig says I'm a moderator and all but I don't want a repeat of what happened last year to happen again. I'd hate for SS to shutdown due to a few trolls.

Exercising my mod privileges will be an absolute last resort because even that seems to accomplish absolutely nothing.


banning vs listening/understanding - SoulRiser - 05-13-2015 12:48 AM

Just stop.


RE: banning vs listening/understanding - Username - 05-13-2015 03:05 AM

Looks like the Wikia might be getting another article, hehehe


RE: banning vs listening/understanding - thewake - 05-13-2015 07:05 AM

SirMarty doesn't negotiate with terroristsedgyists.