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[In]finite Universe - Printable Version

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[In]finite Universe - Happy Camper - 06-30-2008 12:45 PM

liq3 Wrote:
john tuttle Wrote:we may be the only form of intelligent life in the universe
Assuming the universe is infinite in size, this is scientifically impossible.

Is it?


Re: [In]finite Universe - liq3 - 06-30-2008 01:07 PM

Why not? If the universe is not infinite, there is something outside it.

I mean...nothing...Nothing can't have an end...It is by definition the lack of something. Thus, the universe is either infinite in size, or contained in something else. One of those (or both) must be true.


Re: [In]finite Universe - Bob Dole - 06-30-2008 01:12 PM

Probably not. If the universe has a volume of infinite, then it follows that the thermal energy throughout the universe must be either infinite or finite. If infinite, we'd be fucking vaporized. If finite, yay impending heat death. While there is an infinite void beyond our current universe that is quickly being filled, the universe itself isn't infinite. Well, on second thought, if you count the void as part of the universe, the answer is yes.


Re: [In]finite Universe - liq3 - 06-30-2008 01:32 PM

Anonymous1.0 Wrote:Probably not. If the universe has a volume of infinite, then it follows that the thermal energy throughout the universe must be either infinite or finite. If infinite, we'd be fucking vaporized. If finite, yay impending heat death. While there is an infinite void beyond our current universe that is quickly being filled, the universe itself isn't infinite. Well, on second thought, if you count the void as part of the universe, the answer is yes.
Uh...you're logic failed a bit...Say you have an infinite number of workers, with an infinite number of supples, building an infinitely large building. It's gonna take them an infinite amount of time to finish it. Same with the heat. Gonna take it an infinite amount of time to fill the universe. Razz

Bah. More like it's can be infinite, and still be like...moderate enough to not fry us. Bah I can't explain. Really, it's not that hard to grasp...It's so damn obvious. :/


Re: [In]finite Universe - Bob Dole - 06-30-2008 01:55 PM

lol. If there is infinite thermal energy, and infinite space, then it logically follows that the heat is filling the space with infinite thermal energy and continues to fill the universe with infinite thermal energy as it expands.. And your example really didn't follow.


Re: [In]finite Universe - liq3 - 06-30-2008 03:01 PM

You still don't get it...Lets say that each line is a snapshot, of the universe, and the line after it is a snapshot 10 billion years later (or something. Details aren't important!). E = thermal energy, N = nothing, or universe.

ENNENN
Now it COULD then be
EEEEEE.
But no, this is more likely.
ENNENNENNENNENNENN.
Get it? For every little bit of energy, there is an infinite amount of space to put it. Seriously. You could divide the room into an infinite amount of rooms, each of infinite size, and put a single bit (particle?) of thermal energy in each room, and you'd never run out of rooms.

Another way...lets say math. Infinity * infinity = infinity. Which means infinity / infinity = infinity. Get it? Universe / thermal energy = infinity. Get it?


Re: [In]finite Universe - Bob Dole - 06-30-2008 03:43 PM

I get what you're trying to say but I still disagree. If there is an infinite amount of thermal energy, then it should be incredibly hot, no matter the amount of space. If you fill an infinite amount of space with an infinite amount of something, then that space is going to be filled with that something.


Re: [In]finite Universe - rAnx - 06-30-2008 03:43 PM

Liq, I think you're trying to oversimplify a rather tough to grasp cosmological principle in attempting to put a value or definition on "nothing." From the theorized big bang, it wasn't simply matter and energy expanding, but space itself. To attempt to comprehend the "nothingness" outside of "space" isn't only impossible to create a mental construct for, but is inconsequential to any modern purpose imaginable for the reason that faster than light travel is impossible. What we have determined to be the "end" of the universe is forever unreachable due to the forces that attempt to collapse it. Not only do the work against the eternally expanding matter and energy from the big bang, but we are subject to such forces as well and thus will never reach any purported "end" of the universe. It is, for all intents and purposes, an infinite size to us, but isn't truly infinite in its scope.

And for the record, I believe it's been determined that the space time curvature of the universe is ever so slightly saddle shaped. This means that the universe, as stated by Anonymous, though not truly infinite, will suffer from eventual heat death in approx. 10^10 years.


Re: [In]finite Universe - Jonno - 06-30-2008 04:30 PM

Well.......there's time for another bath then!


Re: [In]finite Universe - liq3 - 06-30-2008 05:44 PM

Anonymous1.0 Wrote:I get what you're trying to say but I still disagree. If there is an infinite amount of thermal energy, then it should be incredibly hot, no matter the amount of space. If you fill an infinite amount of space with an infinite amount of something, then that space is going to be filled with that something.
Yes, I agree. The thing is, you can have any amount of thermal energy per square light year, and still have an infinite amount of it. That is my point. :/

And rAnx...
rAnx Wrote:but is inconsequential to any modern purpose imaginable for the reason that faster than light travel is impossible.
Just like whether space is infinite or not.


Re: [In]finite Universe - Bob Dole - 06-30-2008 06:10 PM

Eh. I see what you're saying. But I just still kind of disagree. Eh, who knows?


Re: [In]finite Universe - thewake - 06-30-2008 09:43 PM

After reading all of this I have come to realize that I don't, and never will, comprehend the infinite.

And I also have no idea what any of you mean by infinite heat or infinite space. I also have no idea why anybody ponders such concept while they could be doing something constructive, like pondering the meaning of life or starting a doomed political and social revolution.

Don't any of you feel very small when you think about the Universe?
Like so insignificant it's not even funny?
And how can there, logically, be infinite anything? Like, something could forever be expanding, but not infinite? Right? Or is my human brain just too feeble to grasp the concept, but powerful enough to know it is there?

Meh.


Re: [In]finite Universe - Bob Dole - 06-30-2008 09:59 PM

I don't think really anyone can grasp the concept of infinity. As for if infinite anything really exists in anything other than mathematics, the answer is a resounding, "I dunno."


Re: [In]finite Universe - thewake - 06-30-2008 10:03 PM

Woah, I have nothing more to say about the concept of infinity.


I think that a new philosophical age may be dawning upon us, fostered by the growth of the Internet facilitating free thought and transportation of ideas like never before.


Re: [In]finite Universe - Bob Dole - 06-30-2008 10:06 PM

Lol. It already has. Began in the 90s.


Re: [In]finite Universe - thewake - 06-30-2008 10:08 PM

Craps, I missed the beginning.
LET US PONDER THE UNPONDERABLE!


Re: [In]finite Universe - Happy Camper - 07-01-2008 03:05 AM

Anonymous1.0 Wrote:the answer is a resounding, "I dunno."

He gets it!

I like to pick out favorite theories but I don't see a lot of point in debating over them. Rather discuss them. Realize the amount of uncertainty on our part. But really, this is one of my favorite topics in philosophical forums. There was a poll once on another site to see which people gravitated to and it recognized a couple different options:

-infinite space/infinite time
-infinite space/finite time
-finite space/infinite time
-finite space/finite time

I, myself am a fan of the "big bounce" or oscillating universe theory. Which would put me toward the finite space school. Someone once made the argument that the elasticity would eventually reach an equilibrium but that's the most interesting theory I came across.

Probably Weswammy Wrote:Woah, I have nothing more to say about the concept of infinity.


I think that a new philosophical age may be dawning upon us, fostered by the growth of the Internet facilitating free thought and transportation of ideas like never before.

Postmodernism. It's my favorite word. I use it far too often because the movement excites me so much.


Re: [In]finite Universe - liq3 - 07-01-2008 03:09 AM

Eh I don't know what theory it falls under, but I'd personally say the universe isn't infinite...More that's it's just incredibly large, and it loops back on itself. This is mainly due to my beliefs. Logically, I fall back on the "I have no evidence, so I dunno."


Re: [In]finite Universe - John Tuttle - 07-01-2008 03:29 AM

Happy Camper Wrote:
liq3 Wrote:
john tuttle Wrote:we may be the only form of intelligent life in the universe
Assuming the universe is infinite in size, this is scientifically impossible.

Is it?
if you actually read what i had typed, i said we probably are not sfter that sentence. anyways, even if the universe is infinite, that doesn't mean all of it is full of galaxies and stars. you can have a 3-gallon tank of water with only 1 gallon of water in it. i personally do believe there is some form of intelligent life out there, but it is not a scientific fact yet.


Re: [In]finite Universe - thewake - 07-01-2008 03:45 AM

john tuttle Wrote:i personally do believe there is some form of intelligent life out there, but it is not a scientific fact yet.
Sure isn't any on this planet.


Re: [In]finite Universe - random_name - 07-01-2008 05:16 AM

i believe in the theory of omniverse, multiverse, univers. if this theory is correct it would be ignorant to believe that we are the only intelligent life forms in the omniverse. in my opinion.


Re: [In]finite Universe - thewake - 07-01-2008 05:40 AM

I believe in a carniverse.
Herbiverses are for weak losers, and omniverses are too compromising.


Re: [In]finite Universe - liq3 - 07-01-2008 06:03 AM

Probably Weswammy Wrote:I believe in a carniverse.
Herbiverses are for weak losers, and omniverses are too compromising.
*cuts #2530 legs off, burns the wounds to seal them, then feast on his arm because meat is tasty and he made a bad joke*


Re: [In]finite Universe - thewake - 07-01-2008 06:04 AM

liq3 has seen the light.


Re: [In]finite Universe - Zstriker - 07-01-2008 06:08 AM

Quickly! Close the blinds!

On a more serious note, look at negative numbers. It hardly makes sense when you think about it. You can't have -1 of anything.


Re: [In]finite Universe - thewake - 07-01-2008 06:12 AM

But it works in distance. I went -5 miles, it's like the opposite of the way you were going.


Re: [In]finite Universe - Zstriker - 07-01-2008 06:13 AM

No, that's 5 miles. Just in a different direction.


Re: [In]finite Universe - Zstriker - 07-01-2008 06:14 AM

Similar to how you can't "face backward".


Re: [In]finite Universe - thewake - 07-01-2008 06:14 AM

That's another way of looking at it.
But my way explains why they teach us Algebra.


Re: [In]finite Universe - Zstriker - 07-01-2008 06:40 AM

I guess.. And just forgot whatever I was thinking about, ah well. Shrug